My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a day

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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#51

Post by Gee.S »

Monger, you say "at bay" and "reinfestation" as if there are mites to control. This appears to be a prophylactic situation, not one of control.

I haven't sprayed regularly in years, and my collection is clean as a whip, folly or no. Frankly, I wouldn't keep my plants on translaminars any more than I would keep children on Ritalin. That is a personal decision, to each his and her own. But it doesn't appear to apply here, since there is no evidence of mite activity in Neli's collection.

This whole discussion has gotten kind of silly. It happens time and again, New folks show up on the forum, and someone drops a mite bomb, sending once happy gardeners into a paranoid tizzy over nothing. Sigh.... As far as I know, there may be less than ten posters on this forum who can even recognize mite activity when they see it.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#52

Post by Agavemonger »

You are situated quite remotely, and surrounded on all sides by primarily native vegetation. Furthermore, you live in a very extreme climate. I would also assume that your yard is far less likely to be exposed to neighborhood mites than the typical Southern California urban environment. And you have sprayed liberally in the past, if your posts are any indication.

I would also assume that your well-established and healthy plants combined with your extreme environment keeps severe infestations at bay. But I would be willing to bet that a good stereo microscope would prove even to your satisfaction that you are far from "mite-free."

There may very well be native predators in Neli's immediate environment that might preclude mite infestations altogether. But I kind of doubt it. My post was not necessarily aimed at her, just a summation of my own experience in Southern California.

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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#53

Post by Gee.S »

I have homes all around me, many have Agaves. And there is no shortage of pest around, based upon the number of weevil attacks I see. You live closer to nursery mite than me, I live closer to habitat mite than you. What does it all mean in the context of this thread?

And yes I have sprayed liberally in the past. Once upon a time, I visited all manner of nursery, purposely seeking out and purchasing dozens of mite infested plants. With the help of others, I developed a successful regimen to manage/eradicate them. So yes, lots of spraying. But I don't spray healthy plants unless my collection is compromised, just as I wouldn't administer harsh drugs to my children in order to prevent them from catching cold.

But you have, and I understand why. You were a commercial operation with substantial turnover. In that circumstance it would have been irresponsible for you to not be on a continual rotational spray regimen.

But none of that pertains to Neli's situation. I have suggested a prophylactic regimen to Neli in Post #48, specifically for her situation as I understand it. Given her remote location, my emphasis is on preventing the introduction of Agave mite to her collection. Does it seem reasonable to you? Is there anything you might suggest to enhance that regimen?
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#54

Post by Brooksphilly »

"This whole discussion has gotten kind of silly. It happens time and again, New folks show up on the forum, and someone drops a mite bomb, sending once happy gardeners into a paranoid tizzy over nothing. Sigh.... As far as I know, there may be less than ten posters on this forum who can even recognize mite activity when they see it."

Thank. You. 😜😜😜
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#55

Post by KLC »

In response to recommendations to continuously rotate and spray ones collection every 30 to 45 days or else face certain infestation, I have hundreds of agaves in the garden and in the nursery, and I haven't used a miticide for a long, long time. I have zero mite problems (mcvansoest was here a few weeks ago, he can back me up on that claim). Lets not put that kind of fear in peoples minds, it just isn't true. Miticides are expensive chemicals, and someone who maybe be new to the agave scene may read posts like that , panic and unnecessarily go out and buy hundreds of dollars worth of chemicals out of fear.
:))
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#56

Post by Gee.S »

^ Or worse, not sleep at night.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#57

Post by Steph115 »

Gee.S wrote:This whole discussion has gotten kind of silly. It happens time and again, New folks show up on the forum, and someone drops a mite bomb, sending once happy gardeners into a paranoid tizzy over nothing. Sigh.... As far as I know, there may be less than ten posters on this forum who can even recognize mite activity when they see it.
Having seen this happen three times in the last month, I can vouch for this statement ^ :U: Sorry guys! Appreciate your expertise!
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#58

Post by Viegener »

I think it's just a sign of everyone's eagerness to be helpful & share knowledge. Frankly I'd rather hear too much about pests like aloe & agave mites than too little. It's easy to be paranoid when we have so much invested in out plants.
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#59

Post by mcvansoest »

KLC wrote:In response to recommendations to continuously rotate and spray ones collection every 30 to 45 days or else face certain infestation, I have hundreds of agaves in the garden and in the nursery, and I haven't used a miticide for a long, long time. I have zero mite problems (mcvansoest was here a few weeks ago, he can back me up on that claim). Lets not put that kind of fear in peoples minds, it just isn't true. Miticides are expensive chemicals, and someone who maybe be new to the agave scene may read posts like that , panic and unnecessarily go out and buy hundreds of dollars worth of chemicals out of fear.
:))
I do not think KLC needs any backing up, because many of you have his Agaves, but indeed KLC's plants are clean, and while he may have a few less plants than before in his nursery, there are still very many excellent plants there and his in the ground collection is super nice!

Anyway, I can see both (or the many) sides of the how to treat against Agave mites argument, but it seems we repeat ourselves a lot on this subject as there are at least several threads out there where some or all aspects of the above thread have been discussed. Maybe there is a way to point people towards the pertinent discussion(s) with a sticky or something, or work up a thread with some useful photos that may help people learn to recognize - or at least start on the path of learning to recognize mite-sign.

Personally, I treat for Agave (and Aloe) mites as necessary (has only happened once in case of Agave mites) and do not employ a high frequency prophylactic heavy treatment schedule with rotating chemicals, do not see the need for it. Rats and the Agave Snout Weevil have been much bigger and more lethal threats to my Agaves (and in case of the rat Aloes) than the Agave mite.
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#60

Post by Stone Jaguar »

Funny how some people (with the benefit of hindsight and an efficacious control protocol/s) can brush this off now as not a big deal. In the case of aloe mite, I can see that right now well-known retail succulent nurseries selling fantasy aloes in AZ and NorCal are selling symptomic, infested plants as evidenced by severely galled infls. UC extension offices just published a heads up on agave mites affecting nursery plants up here as recently as last fall (summary available online).

It really is too bad the XW threads weren't preserved, but many here may recall seeing some quite fatalistic and dire accounts of people having their collections pretty much buggered up by agave mite and talking about throwing in the towel. I was not following any US-based C&S websites during the late part of the last decade through to about 2013, so I suppose that I skipped the worst chapter of this and only heard about it after the fact. I do find it noteworthy that all the while this was emerging as a real problem for succulent growers in the southwest, I was importing agaves to Guatemala - via my Miami freight forwarder - from several commercial sources that were presumably exposed the them, such as Yucca Do, Miles Anderson, Gene Joseph, Arid Lands, etc. as well as buying plants to hand carry back from Scottsdale area nurseries such as Desert Foothills.

Never saw damage on any plants I bought, nor got a whiff of a problem from any of these suppliers. However, because of my work breeding adeniums and cloud forest palms, both of which are magnets for two spot spider mites, I was already using Forbid, Abamectin, Floramite, dimethoate, etc. on ALL incoming plants, whatever the source. The first I heard of "agave mites" was standing around Jeff Chemnick's garden in the fall of 2012 listening to visiting growers recount tales of horror vis a vis this pest and their best cures at the time.

I don't prophylactically spray my collections when nothing's bugging my plants. But nothing new gets even close without quarantine and spray protocol mentioned earlier. Personally, I agree that it's a bit counter productive to over-dramatize the threat, but it is irresponsible to diminish its potential for aggro to newbie collectors.

There is a parallel in an eriophyid that attacks ant rubiacs in the 'States and Europe and is extremely difficult to control, not the least because collectors don't recognize the lesions, galls and callouses on the leaves for mite damage. To further muddy control efforts, the collections manager of an acclaimed US botanical garden back east claims they're naturally-occurring, in spite of the fact that there is not a single image of a wild plant, nor cultivated plants in Australia, showing these symptoms. Ignorance can indeed be bliss.

J
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#61

Post by Gee.S »

I too wish XW threads were preserved. The efficacious control protocol we developed is documented there from step one to step last in a single thread. The entire process was transparent as can be, and as I recall took a couple years. The process as it unfolded was entirely predictable, starting with "wth is damaging my Agaves" to learning about mites and miticides to playing wack-a-mole to the final solution. Along the way were reported exchanges with wholesalers, the DBG and the big Tucson nurseries. While some of these folks were quick on the draw, there was great hesitation before acquiescing to the sad and sorry fact that horrifically expensive miticides were required for control. In a subsequent exchange with DBG staff, I learned that they independently adopted the same strategy we developed in terms of miticide use and time requirement.

Problem is that everyone hesitates and/or believes they can do better with less expensive chems. We tried the less expensive chems, we tried all manner of measured approach. They don't work. Well you know how it is, it's one thing to be told that, but far more convincing to actually see the process and failed attempts that led to it.

As far as "no big deal" goes, it is no big deal so long as you don't have the problem. There is plenty of info available here if you do and no shortage of folks willing to help. In the meantime I don't see the advantage to scaring the begeezus out of new arrivals with talk of invisible demons. May as well set their hair on fire.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#62

Post by Spination »

The only point I would add is I never had a mite issue until I eventually (and inevitably IMO) brought in infected plants from a single source, which were visibly unaffected when they arrived. These plants looked fine at first, but were the first to subsequently raise the alarm that something not right was happening, and begin my own personal learning curve about the problem. Afterwards, the mites did infect other nearby plants (other agave). It is true that I had acquired hundreds of plants without an issue, until I got "unlucky" eventually.
The obvious solution after spraying everything until no evidence of problems were subsequently exhibited, was to develop a protocol (as suggested by Stone Jaguar) of making sure new acquisitions did not pass through the gate into a clean collection until they were preemptively treated. Unfortunately for me, I had to learn the same lesson twice: once for agave, and then again for aloe. I would like to point out that my initial experience with agave mite did not affect my aloes, and my subsequent experience with aloe mite did not affect my agave - and I keep specimens of each in close proximity. To me, this would suggest that in spite of the fact that there are myriad species of eriophyid mites - that there are indeed some that affect a preferred genera and not another, and vice versa. Otherwise, I should have experienced two clear infestations across the board with both - not first with one, and then with the other.
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#63

Post by Viegener »

I thought I'd copied some of the Xericworld conversations, but I can't find them. I think it would be a great service to future growers to compile a reference sheet we can all agree upon (not to mention avoiding duplications of this learning process) — posted here & disseminated on other sites even, so it sticks around. For agaves and for aloes. A simple, not overly technical reference doc that helps not just advanced growers, but passionate beginners.

(I just found an aloe mite infestation from a 5 gallon pot of A. 'Hedgehog' I bought last year at a big box store. Wish I had a protocol in place... )
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#64

Post by Azuleja »

Viegener, how long did you have the aloe before the symptoms emerged? Kind of goes to show that a few months quarantine by itself wouldn't be long enough to deem something safe without an accompanying spray regimen.
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#65

Post by Gee.S »

I have no issues with adding a pest forum, this has been suggested before, but we need someone to step up and moderate. My vision is to arrange topics alphabetically by common pest name:

Agave Mite
Agave Snout Weevil
Aloe Mite
Mealy Bugs

And so on, with one thread dedicated to each pest with an eye on treatment. It will require moderation, as I would prefer to maintain it as an information repository, rather than a discussion forum per se, along the lines of our Galleries. Or we could maintain two threads for each topic, one locked informational topic (once enough information has been accrued) and one for discussion. Moderator could add valuable info from the discussion side to the locked info topic as he/she deems fit. Just some random, jumbled thoughts. As always, I am open to suggestion.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#66

Post by Stone Jaguar »

Just be sure to add a disclaimer, Gee. I always try to emphasize that my use or mention of a product does not constitute and endorsement; people shud follow local laws (really ;), use common sense, general good practices, dispose of safely, etc.
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#67

Post by Viegener »

I'll volunteer to moderate, and can also copy edit, which I'm pretty good at. I'd rather someone else wrote the pieces though, since I'm an amateur in this respect. (You, Monger & Stone Jaguar are more the experts).

To that list, I'd add rot & fungus problems.
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#68

Post by Gee.S »

OK, you're up. Let me know via PM if you want to change/edit any of my preliminary handiwork.

You don't need to add a lot of content. You'll need to organize content added by yourself and others. My concern is that too much discussion can confuse and obfuscate, as we've already seen.

Also, let me know if you want to copy or move any existing content into the new section. Just shoot me a link to the thread and post number(s).
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#69

Post by Gee.S »

Stone Jaguar wrote:Just be sure to add a disclaimer, Gee. I always try to emphasize that my use or mention of a product does not constitute and endorsement; people shud follow local laws (really ;), use common sense, general good practices, dispose of safely, etc.
Good idea. A general disclaimer can be authored and added to the new section as a sticky.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#70

Post by Viegener »

Azuleja, the mite on the Aloe 'Hedgehog' took a good 9 months to show up. Of course it could have moved in from elsewhere but the closest aloe mite that existed was about 60' away, and I've cut out out (tho not yet sprayed) the "galls" regularly.

Gees, will PM you for instructions.
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#71

Post by Neli »

So far my agaves from Arid lands are almost 3 month in isolation. I have sprayed them with sicofidor, and the other medicines you suggested. BTW I just discovered that sicofidor and confidor are one and the same thing and one of the miticides you recommended. Without knowing it I was dipping all new arrivals in it. So another 2 month and maybe I will be able to relax a bit. Will take pictures today.
I bought some new agaves last week from Zimbabwe. They were Manfredas...and without any roots. Looks like they just chopped them from the mother as opposed to pulling them off with some roots. Do you think they have a chance of surviving and rooting? I only discovered it when I decided to repot them.
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I bought many plants for the garden.
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#72

Post by Gee.S »

Neli, if they're growing, they're good to go. Mite-infested Agaves basically don't grow.
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"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#73

Post by Viegener »

Neli, you almost have enough plants for a nursery!
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#74

Post by Neli »

Gee.S wrote:Neli, if they're growing, they're good to go. Mite-infested Agaves basically don't grow.
I am still praying he he he.
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Re: My agave African adventures and collection>one agave a d

#75

Post by Neli »

Viegener wrote:Neli, you almost have enough plants for a nursery!
I have a big garden and no plants here, so have to import them all.
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