Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

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GreekDesert
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Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

#1

Post by GreekDesert »

Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta' , picture is from Paolo
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Re: Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

#2

Post by Spination »

One of my very favorite agave, because I've kept them outside in pots for a couple of years now, and they always look good. Morning sun until early afternoon in the summer, and freezing temps down to 25 F in the winter, and no problems. That's my kind of Agave!
I picked up two at the same time. I chose this one because it was a little different, with the irregular variegation. The other is the full 'Medio Picta' variegation.
2018 05 20 A sal Fer MP #1 a.jpg
2018 05 20 A sal Fer MP #1 a.jpg (204.41 KiB) Viewed 4173 times
2018 05 20 A sal Fer MP #2 a.jpg
2018 05 20 A sal Fer MP #2 a.jpg (184.18 KiB) Viewed 4173 times
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Re: Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

#3

Post by Azuleja »

Spination, are the leaf surfaces rough or smooth?
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Re: Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

#4

Post by Spination »

It's all relative, but I was just out there feeling like a fool while "petting" different agave trying to get a grip on how rough or smooth it is. :lol: Using a still smallish asperrima Variegate as a benchmark for rough (which feels like sandpaper), it's not as rough as that. The Protoamericana Lemon Lime in between these two MP plants is also pretty rough. It's not nearly that rough, but also not glossy smooth as A. salmiana 'Butterfingers'. I'm just trying to accurately convey it's texture. :red: In the final analysis, I'd say it's more smooth than rough, but not super smooth either.

I'm aware from Paul's information offered repeatedly (which I do not dispute), that these are not real Ferox. The real Ferox was found hundreds of years ago, brought to Europe, named, and apparently never found again in habitat. So, the only "real" Ferox apparently are descendants of those European original plant(s). However, this thread did already exist, and this cultivar is known as such: A. salmiana v Ferox 'Medio Picta'. What else can I call it? I suspect no one knows absolutely what it really is, if it is not Ferox, which it likely is not. All I know is that this name does identify this plant such that people either know the plant being referred to, or at least can look it up and find plenty of info on it as well.

Here's the San Marcos link and info for it:
https://www.smgrowers.com/products/plan ... nt_id=3844" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My impression, which correlates with the San Marcos information shared of the plants origins, is that it's a So Cal plant "discovered" in Santa Barbara. Where did it come from before that? Most likely not from Europe, which would rule out Ferox as the actual correct ID.

My plants are apparently not nearly large or mature enough to feature the upright central leaves and sigmoid curve and long terminal spine (salmiana) that is evident in the photo for the big plant shown on the SM web page . I think because of the heavy variegation, the leaves when these plants are young-ish are more floppy and flexible, and don't get really strong and rigid until older. Also, I can say that these plants need good light (sunshine). If grown in shade, the leaves become inordinately long and weak/floppy. However, in time, with direct sun, that situation rectifies itself. I believe these plants do handle sunshine quite well though. These two plants have been kept outside since I got them, and have never sunburned. That said, they get some shade from nearby bushes and trees once the sun passes over in the early afternoon. I have an offset that was kept in the greenhouse too long - it's leaves are too long. It's been out in the sun even getting afternoon sun for months, and it still hasn't sunburned either. Definitely handles sun as well as the best of them - at least here in NorCal.
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Re: Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

#5

Post by Gee.S »

Salmiana leaves should be smooth as a baby's bottom.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

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Re: Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

#6

Post by Azuleja »

They are cool looking. I asked because I can see a textured leaf surface on the plant Greek Desert posted. I was wondering if yours are the same. I like almost all of the different salmianas. Surprisingly, I spotted a strikingly large one by someone's farm one town away. I kept wanting to stop to ask for a pup and then one day I drove by and it was pushed over in a tangled heap.
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Re: Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

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Post by Spination »

Wow, that's shocking. First, they are not particularly quick to get to good size - so someone was growing that for years and years. Also, they're not that common, and are moderately pricey. I listed a pup on Ebay last year, figuring it would go for somewhere around 35ish. Nope, went for double. At that price, I was very happy to let the 2nd highest bidder have another pup I was going to hang on to... Sounds like someone had no idea what they had there! :eek: Pushed over in a tangled heap sounds like the work of a farm dozer.
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Re: Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

#8

Post by Azuleja »

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear it was a normal salmiana type agave, broad dark green leaves and very large. I've never seen one around here. Not particularly rare but very striking in person. It had definitely been dozed.
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Re: Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

#9

Post by Spination »

Ah, OK. Now that I read what you said again, I can see that I made an assumption. What you said was clear enough... :))
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Re: Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

#10

Post by A-California »

I don't think it's salmiana! I have a couple of these labeled as Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'. That name was disputed when I posted photos on line. So I took it a meeting to let Kelly Griffin get a look at it. He said "NO WAY!" He identified it as common americana mediopicta. That was also the ID given by folks on line.
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Re: Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

#11

Post by Spination »

I have A. americana Medio Picta. Let me just say, it's not the same as these what I acquired as A. salmiana v Ferox Medio Picta. They don't look the same, they don't grow the same, they don't handle sun the same, and they don't offset the same either. I would never, ever, even half-brain-dead confuse one for the other. So, as far as them being the same, let me just say for the record "NO WAY!"
Here's my "common" americana (by the way - not so "common" either).
2018 05 29 A americana MP Aurea a.jpg
2018 05 29 A americana MP Aurea a.jpg (177.94 KiB) Viewed 4120 times
leaf
2018 05 29 A americana MP Aurea b leaf.jpg
2018 05 29 A americana MP Aurea b leaf.jpg (136.28 KiB) Viewed 4120 times
salmiana leaf - as a point of interest, this mostly green leaf on my irregularly variegated specimen is different from the other leaves on the very same plant (a strong indicator that the heavy variegation has a dramatic effect on the typical growth of the leaves). It's still an immature plant, but that leaf is getting quite wide there just past around the middle - bulging out I'd say. Marginal spines are not the same either. I now have an all green offset from this plant, and it will be very interesting to see how that develops and grows, and what it will look like in 4-5 years time. I'll bet right now it won't look like any americana in my collection either....
2018 05 29 A Ferox MP #1 b leaf.jpg
2018 05 29 A Ferox MP #1 b leaf.jpg (114.6 KiB) Viewed 4120 times
americana terminal spine - wider, shorter
2018 05 29 A americana MP Aurea c terminal spine.jpg
2018 05 29 A americana MP Aurea c terminal spine.jpg (113.44 KiB) Viewed 4120 times
salmiana terminal spine - long and skinny as expected. The americana terminal spine - not so much...
2018 05 29 A Ferox MP #1 c terminal spine.jpg
2018 05 29 A Ferox MP #1 c terminal spine.jpg (66.94 KiB) Viewed 4120 times
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Re: Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

#12

Post by A-California »

Spination, maybe you could take your plant to an expert in the matter? I've had this discussion about this plant a few times on line and at first I thought the labeling must be correct. But folks pushed back every time I posted it as labeled. So, I brought my potted plant to a meeting Kelly Griffin was speaking at and ask him. He is one of, if not the world's leading expert in Agaves. As I stated, he said 'no way is that ferox! It's americana mediopicta'. Hopefully he'll be up your way sometime soon. I've never thought the americana medio's look much like the true americana but that's what they call them. This plant being called Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta', however is not an A. salmiana v. ferox at all and I think it's is not properly IDed.
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Re: Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

#13

Post by Gee.S »

You may be overestimating KG's level of expertise just a bit, but allow me to add that the OP in this thread is a European fellow. 'Ferox' is a European A. salmiana sport that AFAIK, has never found its way to the commercial US market here across the great pond. OTOH, 'ferox' seems to be a word that folks LOVE adding to their agave name tags.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

#14

Post by Paul S »

And again I will say there are no cultivars of var ferox shown in pics so far. To me they all look like salmiana, apart from the one americana shown for comparison, but growing stretched by shade or pot growing. AFAIA I've never seen a variegated cv of ferox.

Again, this is what var ferox should look like - these are on Tenerife.
DSC_0056.jpg
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DSC_0181.jpg
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Re: Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

#15

Post by Spination »

A-California wrote:Spination, maybe you could take your plant to an expert in the matter? I've had this discussion about this plant a few times on line and at first I thought the labeling must be correct. But folks pushed back every time I posted it as labeled. So, I brought my potted plant to a meeting Kelly Griffin was speaking at and ask him. He is one of, if not the world's leading expert in Agaves. As I stated, he said 'no way is that ferox! It's americana mediopicta'. Hopefully he'll be up your way sometime soon. I've never thought the americana medio's look much like the true americana but that's what they call them. This plant being called Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta', however is not an A. salmiana v. ferox at all and I think it's is not properly IDed.
I was tempted to reply right away, but I'm glad I didn't.

Mostly, there is nothing much I can say that isn't repetition of what has been said already in this thread, or just plain unnecessary. Please reread post #4, and then Paul's post #14. Then regarding the claim that this plant is simply A. americana, please reread post #11 with comparison photos, and consider Paul's suggestion regarding A. salmiana.

However, I do have several examples of A. salmiana such as 'Butterfingers', and this plant being marketed in the U.S. under the name you also purchased yours is not the same either (not talking about the variegation). I'm very much looking forward to growing my non-variegated sport from this plant and seeing how it eventually compares to examples I have here growing of americana, and the "real" European Ferox (non-variegated), and A. salmiana.

The statement that this is not a real Ferox was addressed early on in that Post #4, and I am in agreement that it's not. However, as stated already (didn't want to repeat myself but it appears to be unavoidable) - that is the name this unique plant is known as here. With that name alone, I don't need to see the plant, I can easily envision it... and it does not look like americana, that's for sure. In that respect, the name achieves the goal of identifying the plant as something apart and different from other perhaps similar looking plants out there. It's not correct, but good luck getting everyone to change their labels and start calling it something else, which at this point in time, I'm not convinced is actually known. Let me just be blunt about it, going by some so-called "world's leading expert" assertion that this is simply A. americana is just as wrong as the name the plant currently is well known as. Perhaps, the best name at this time would be as also referred to found from that link in Post #4 for San Marcos Growers is the name: "Alex's Agave". Again, good luck too referring to your plant as Alex's Agave and having but a very, very few have any clue what you're talking about.
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Re: Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

#16

Post by Spination »

I decided I would try once more to show pertinent photos regarding the discussion at hand. These are all taken today of plants in my own collection.
First, the plant in question, which I'll refer to as Alex's Agave. No one I could consider "expert" would be oblivious of these very salmiana-ish terminal spines.
2018 10 24 Alex's Agave a.jpg
2018 10 24 Alex's Agave a.jpg (158.12 KiB) Viewed 3934 times
Now, an actual A. americana Medio Picta Aurea - as similar to the plant above as one can get (at least variegation-wise), but no one would confuse this plant with it's short, blunt terminal spines for something in the salmiana complex. This is a sister plant to the one pictured earlier with the long etiolated leaves. The difference is due to this plant having been thrown outside earlier in the year and it's newest leaves coming in influenced by stronger light.
2018 10 24 A americana Medio Picta Aurea.jpg
2018 10 24 A americana Medio Picta Aurea.jpg (133.14 KiB) Viewed 3934 times
For further reference - A. americana Marginata. Again, lacking the long, slender, tapering terminal spines which are indicative of A. salmiana genetics. This plant is definitely A. americana.
2018 10 24 A americana Marginata a.jpg
2018 10 24 A americana Marginata a.jpg (117.21 KiB) Viewed 3934 times
And A. americana Medio Picta Alba. A common theme? Short, blunt terminal spines. No one would dispute this is most definitely a member of the A. americana group.
2018 10 24 A americana Medio Picta Alba.jpg
2018 10 24 A americana Medio Picta Alba.jpg (195.29 KiB) Viewed 3934 times
Here is a named plant without controversy - A. salmiana 'Butterfingers'. Long, tapering terminal spine - but I'd like to point out the marginals as well, in contrast to the plants in the photo which follows, also A. salmiana.
2018 10 24 A salmiana Butterfingers a.jpg
2018 10 24 A salmiana Butterfingers a.jpg (134.4 KiB) Viewed 3934 times
The two plants in this photo obtained from 2 different sources also feature long, slender, tapering terminal spines. They were acquired as A. salmiana Ferox Marginata, and they differ from 'Butterfingers' in the margin. Note the very different marginal spines. I'm not claiming these are in fact 'Ferox' (we already know that the real Ferox was a plant discovered hundreds of years ago, brought to Europe, and grown there in collections and botanical gardens, and never found again in habitat), but stating they were acquired as such, and most definitely differ from the plant known as A. salmiana 'Butterfingers'.
2018 10 24 A salmiana Ferox Marginata a.jpg
2018 10 24 A salmiana Ferox Marginata a.jpg (178.22 KiB) Viewed 3934 times
I advocate making one's own observations and comparisons. Pretty hard to do worse than an "expert" looking at salmiana terminal spines and concluding americana. :huh: Keep in mind that Ferox is a var. of A. salmiana, and the term Ferox refers to it's ferocious appearance ------> marginal spines. Other than that, it is the name applied to a very old variety of A. salmiana brought to Europe hundreds of years ago and cultivated there since, and it's original location unknown and apparently not found again in habitat.
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Re: Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

#17

Post by plantpainting »

@Spination Has your green sport of the Agave in question (Alex's Agave) grown out? Can you post any pictures? Any new understanding or consideration in identifying this Agave? Thanks.
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Re: Agave salmiana v. ferox 'Mediopicta'

#18

Post by Spination »

I just want to correct my misinformation previously posted here. As Paul S has said, there is nothing on this thread that is ferox. The one I got labeled as Agave salmiana ferox Medio Picta should be just called "Alex's Agave", and here would be some further information on that plant:
https://www.smgrowers.com/products/plan ... nt_id=3844

Here is something I got down the line from Renny's (pup of a pup) that could well be var Ferox, and is represented/sold as such. The whole character of the plant is different from anything else shown on this thread (form, margins, teeth).
2023 07 03 Agave Ferox Mother plant a.jpg
2023 07 03 Agave Ferox Mother plant a.jpg (467.59 KiB) Viewed 1368 times
Here is a pup of that plant, which is pretty close to MP, and which I'm hoping eventually produces a pup that is full MP.
2023 07 03 Agave Ferox #1 P2 c.jpg
2023 07 03 Agave Ferox #1 P2 c.jpg (379.42 KiB) Viewed 1368 times
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