Agave 'Blue Ember'

[Agavemonger]

The problem with the entire above argument gets back to the ridiculous mis-identification fiasco which has gone on for years at Rancho Tissue Technologies and at Rancho Soledad Nursery. The plant that these guys are arguing so lividly about is actually called 'Blue Emperor', not 'Blue Ember'. 'Blue Ember' is the plant in all of the photos above , through post #23, in this thread, I don't care what anybody says. At some point, someone should have taken responsibility for correcting this fiasco. That means KELLY or HEATHER or BOTH. Since neither seem to want to "GET IT", I can only surmise that they either don't remember which plant they named what, or they simply don't care. Even if that is the case, MAKE A CHOICE, for God's sake, AND GET YOUR PHOTOS RIGHT.

After years of this absurdity, I can only assume that the plant in the photos in this thread above post #23 (Of which Rancho Soledad had quite a few 3' plants for sale years ago labeled 'Blue Ember', which clearly came from the original clone that was T.C.'d under the name 'Blue Ember') are the original 'Blue Ember'. They NEVER looked AT ALL like the plants that are now perceived to be 'Blue Emperor'; that is, the ones that look very similar to 'Royal Spine', 'Little Shark', 'Burnt Burgundy', and several other clones that are more rare and only very occasionally run across. They grow differently, they look different, and they are different. And this difference goes way beyond the limits of tissue culture variants, of which I have many of, including several oddballs from these clones. The other three can also be told apart, although differences are admittedly somewhat more subtle.

You could try to blame it on cultural variation until you are blue in the face; that is so much hog-wash. I have many 'Blue Emperor' and 'Blue Ember' plants growing together in full sun that I have had for years, and they couldn't be more different. If you mixed up five hundred of each of these that were grown under the same conditions all together, I could easily separate them into two groups as fast as I could reach for them.

Once again, the plants in the photos in this thread above post #23 are all 'Blue Ember' as originally grown and sold years ago. The plants in the photos that Ron "pasted-in" to post # 24 are all Agave X 'Blue Emperor'. Kelly is using the original names before the re-naming snafus began. As far as I am concerned, the complete lack of responsibility in regards to getting the names right on these two different plants, over many years time, completely negates anybody from the Rancho Soledad Gang in having anything to say about it anymore. It is almost as if this fiasco was designed as a "Sales Tactic", which goes right along with their typical "Sales Shenanigans" as originally perfected by Jerry Hunter, and meticulously carried on to this day by the current staff. In forty years of doing business with wholesale growers, very few have ever tried to pull the amateurish stunts on me that this nursery seems to religiously delight in.

The Monger

[bigdaddyscondition]

This Heather of whom you speak, Monger...is she the owner of Rancho Soledad Nursery?

[Gee.S]

Kent, check again. I've added a couple of Kelly's photos to the exchange, exactly where he posted them. I'm not sure which is which, but that may bring some clarity.

[Agavemonger]

Big Daddy: Heather is the owner of Rancho Tissue Technologies, who produces (Through Tissue Culture) virtually all of Rancho Soledad Nurseries's production-line plants. Both businesses are located on the same property. Heather is Jerry Hunter's Daughter. Jerry Hunter is the (now deceased) originator of Rancho Soledad Nursery.

Ron, the first two photos you posted in post #24 appear to be shade-grown Agave X 'Blue Emperor'. The terminal spines and margins on the first photo appear slightly burgundy-colored as seen at an angle in the sun, which is a little deceiving as compared to full-sun grown plants, which have dark black opaque terminal spines and margins.

The third photo is very clearly Agave X 'Blue Emperor'. Note the dark black, heavy terminal spines and margins (although the plant is variegated, that really has nothing to do with it).

Unambiguously, all three photos do not at all represent what a full sun grown plant of Agave X 'Blue Emperor' normally looks like; they are, unfortunately, highly deceiving in regards to these arguments.

The Monger

[Gee.S]

It's almost as if (cough cough) they're purposely trying to confuse them. Plants look virtually identical from a certain distance, and they would have been hard pressed to come up with two more similar sounding names. Let's say RS gets an order for 50 Blue Ember, but oh crap, they're still baking in the oven and not yet ready to ship. Hey, we have some Blue Emperor over here, let's ship those instead! Will anyone even notice?

Seriously, allow me to suggest that there is no doubt this obfuscation is intentional, and was done as a mechanism to enhance sales/marketing.

[Agavemonger]

I think that it is more a matter of confusion than obfuscation. Perhaps the photo responsibilities were handed over to an underling. I am pretty sure that nobody over there may actually know which plant is which at this point. Kelly is no longer there, and hasn't been there for some time. Remember, there was also a name switch-er-oo attempted some years ago, which added greatly to the confusion.

Once again, Agave X 'Blue Ember' and Agave X 'Blue Emperor' are two quite different plants. They have different form, different growth patterns, and different coloration throughout their life at all sizes, at least when properly grown with good culture. It is easy to tell them apart at the nursery, and it is easy to tell them apart as smaller, medium-sized, and larger plants at my nursery. Naturally, shade-house grown or greenhouse-grown plants produced by collectors can certainly be expected to vary dramatically in their "look" depending on the outcome of myriad possible variables in the culture they are being grown under. However, full-sun grown plants under reasonably normal cultural regimens are easy to tell apart.

I think that Kelly is operating under the old name scheme from some time ago in the argument "pasted-in" above. I have always tended to agree with Kelly in his thoughts that plants that are not that different from each other should perhaps be deleted down to a reasonable number in production that can easily be told apart; that is, each individual cultivar should have distinct particular merits that justify their production and distribution to the market at large. I feel that both 'Blue Emperor' and 'Blue Ember' have merits that justify their production. Regardless of how I, or anybody else, feel about it, "the cat is already out of the bag", with many hundreds if not thousands of each cultivar having already been distributed at large, at least in the Desert Southwest area.

The problem is in identifying which cultivar is which do to this absolute imbroglio of a naming snafu that has be-deviled these two cultivars for many years now.

Certainly, the cultivar currently-known-as Agave X 'Blue Ember' is an exquisitely beautiful plant, and at all growth stages. It is relatively easy to grow, and thrives on all-day, full-sun scenarios, at least in Southern California. It is an orderly, compact Agave of great symmetry and elegance. The continued production en-masse of this cultivar is a virtual certainty, and demand for this plant can only sky-rocket as it becomes better known in cultivation. Once it becomes better known in the landscape trade, demand can only accelerate to ridiculous levels, especially due to the plant's very limited availability.

The Monger

[Azuleja]

I think that Kelly is operating under the old name scheme from some time ago in the argument "pasted-in" above.  I have always tended to agree with Kelly in his thoughts that plants that are not that different from each other should perhaps be deleted down to a reasonable number in production that can easily be told apart; that is, each individual cultivar has particular merits that justify their production and distribution to the market at large.
The Monger

The name scheme had already been reported on at that point (in your Bleu Confusion thread). Whether KG knew about it or not, he's still showing photos of the plant he says he didn't make, which became Blue Emperor II. Since he claims creation for Blue Emperor but not the plant in the photos, his plant must be the one that became Blue Ember (II). I wasn't aware there were ever two Blue Embers and I'm still not sure, but it's the only way the mental gymnastics don't leave my brain in a knot.

Now, whether it has anything to do with Greg's plant is opinion. We all know what they say about those.

[Agavemonger]

Greg's plant has been around for a long time. He originated the plant himself, so I would think he would know what he has. His plant is known as Agave X 'Burnt Burgundy'.

I have both plants, and although the differences between the two could be argued to be subtle, they are different. They grow differently, and they look different. Agave X 'Burnt Burgundy' has more of a brownish-purple coloration than Agave X 'Blue Emperor', which is a Greenish-Blue-Grey. 'Burnt Burgundy' seems to hold more leaves, and the leaves are generally thinner in width. Most 'Burnt Burgundy' plants I have grown and seen seem to be prone to have variable subtle variegation tendencies of a finely striated, underlying nature.

Another Rancho Soledad introduction of very similar appearance to Agave X 'Blue Emperor' is Agave X 'Little Shark'. They are basically of the same ilk from the same hybrid. These two have similar coloration and similar form. 'Little Shark' tends to offset quite a bit more than 'Blue Emperor', and I believe it to be slightly smaller. The two cultivars are quite easy to get confused. 'Little Shark' is slightly faster and easier for me.

Allen Repashy's introduction of Paul Hutchison's plant known as Agave X 'Royal Spine' is also very similar to the above three plants. It is more of a slightly yellowish-olive green in coloration as a full-sun grown plant, and unfortunately seems particularly prone to rapid collapse as young potted plants when subjected to cold, wet conditions or water-logged soil, and neglected potted plants seem seasonally prone to rapid and irreversible decline from disease and/or insect attack, especially outside in winter months. This can be a tricky clone to grow successfully long-term, especially as smaller plants when things are not to their liking. They seem to do much better in the ground, especially when they get themselves established. See Big Daddy's superb full-sun example in the photo below.

There are a few other miniature cultivars making the rounds occasionally among some Uber-collectors that could easily get confused with the plants in these discussions, but most are rather prolifically-offsetting miniatures that end up looking much smaller as mature plants. It would be best not to get into them here; this discussion is tricky enough without throwing them into the mix!

The Monger

[Gee.S]

Re Ember vs. Emperor: I would say that if someone named one small Agave 'Pen Quill' and another 'Pin Quell', there is intent to obfuscate, if not deceive. If not enunciated carefully, Ember and Emperor are just about as tricky to discern.

Re 'Burnt Burgundy': I can hardly tell one of these small blue cultivars from another. You guys come up with five completely different (cough cough) plants with five different names, and between them there is less variation than in a single 50-plant chrysantha pop on one small hill. It just seems silly. That said, I can easily tell Bunt Burgundy apart from the blue doppelgangers, it's GREEN and has narrower leaves.

[Agavemonger]

The reason most people get confused is that you constantly see pictures of both cultivars interchangeably named with both names. This gets especially difficult when Kelly is using different names than the names that the plants are now being produced under. Look at the ridiculous cat-fight re-posted above caused by this stupidity; it would be far more productive for all concerned if all of these plant experts could get along rather than spewing excrement-laced barbs at each other.

It gets back to the whole 'Retro-Gang' or 'Italian Mob' Table-Top Aloe hybrid confusion foisted on us by the now-defunct Euro-American, "Proven Winners" idiots somewhat in cahoots with Rancho Tissue Technologies. These "Sales Staff" boondoggles cause nothing less than total mass-confusion among innocent collectors who are ultimately left with feelings of having been "ripped off" by sales staff shysters who would be a better fit in a sales job at the local Verizon or Sprint Cell-phone retailer. Thank God that company is now defunct; they were a real piece of work for sure.

The Monger

[bigdaddyscondition]

What Monger said, fer sure. I am one of those "innocent collectors" who has no interest in participating in these brouhahas. I encountered the "Proven Winner" label a few years ago, just out casually shopping for succulents for my newly xeric-converted lawn. The new names threw me, a relative neophyte to gardening, but I quickly figured out that these "Proven Winner" neologisms were nothing but manufactured branding labels for established succulent species. Now I'm seeing "Renee O'Connell hybrids" of aeoniums at Lowe's, complete with warnings on the label not to propagate, presumably under the threat of civil penalties, and maybe she'll take away your birthday too. Seriously?

[bigdaddyscondition]

Allen Repashy's introduction of Paul Hutchison's plant known as Agave X 'Royal Spine' is also very similar to the above three plants. It is more of a yellow-green in coloration as a full-sun grown plant, and seems particularly prone to rapid collapse due to cold, wet conditions or water-logged soil, and is seasonally prone to rapid and irreversible decline from disease and/or insect attack, especially outside in winter months. This is a very difficult clone to grow successfully long-term, especially as smaller plants.

The Monger

Here is my back yard colony of Agave X 'Royal Spine', about 8 -10 years old and grown in full sun. It has survived nicely through triple-digit summers and this last very wet winter. Three years ago I started a new colony in my front yard using several offsets from this colony.

[Gee.S]

^ Nice plants! Like you, I find Royal Spine very easy to grow, and entirely distinct from the (sorry) boring blue this and blue that hybrids that look nearly identical. RS likes it hot and dry, IOW, it likes AZ, including AZ full sun.

[Agavemonger]

What a perfect example, Daddy-O!

After seeing this photo, I went back and edited my post to reflect that this cultivar actually can adapt quite well to in-the-ground scenarios, especially once they are hardened off.

Why they are so touchy as young plants is beyond me. On several occasions I have lost large lots of these as young, four-inch sized plants, in an inordinately short time, for nearly inexplicable reasons.

Your plant(s) are a classic example of this cultivar in perfect condition. Please enter this photo (and perhaps a few more of these) in the gallery entry for "Royal Spine'. Also, could you get some more close-up shots of your 'Blue Ember' and post them for us? Mature plants are quite rare, and your plant clearly shows the unique, formal mature look of this important cultivar.

The Monger

[Melt in the Sun]

Kent - pretty please, can you post pictures of 'Blue Emperor'? It will be the first time any of us have ever seen it. And if you are selling any....you know. I have 'Royal Spine' and 'Little Shark', might as well add the last member of the unholy trinity.

This week I hope to pick up a 'Blue Ember' from DesertDweller, so in a few months/years I should be able to answer the original question pissed around by Kelly and Greg - is is the same as 'Burnt Burgundy'? I still believe it is not. Time will tell!

[DesertDweller]

Kent - pretty please, can you post pictures of 'Blue Emperor'? It will be the first time any of us have ever seen it. And if you are selling any....you know. I have 'Royal Spine' and 'Little Shark', might as well add the last member of the unholy trinity.

This week I hope to pick up a 'Blue Ember' from DesertDweller, so in a few months/years I should be able to answer the original question pissed around by Kelly and Greg - is is the same as 'Burnt Burgundy'? I still believe it is not. Time will tell!

I have never personally thought Blue Ember looked enough like Burnt Burgundy to even question it, so I find this whole discussion kind of odd. Makes me want to acquire some of the latter to grow for comparison sake one of these days.

To any on the prowl for Blue Ember, the nursery in question has gotten another batch, 7 or 8 more as of today's visit. If anyone in the Phoenix area is looking, do let me know and I can direct you there. Anyone not in PHX that will be passing thru at some point, I would be happy to grab some and hold them.

[bigdaddyscondition]

As you requested, Monger. The third (bottom) photo is the mature Blue Ember portrayed in my post above. The top and middle photos are of a now-maturing offset from this parent plant.

I have started to get caught up on posting photos of some of the agaves that have matured in my yard over the last 3 years or so since I was active on Agaveville. See my new posts in the Agavaceae Gallery under Royal Spine, horrida, guiengola 'Crème Brulee', and sebastiana.

[Azuleja]

Nice, might need to watermark those

[bigdaddyscondition]

Hmm, maybe so.

[Agavemonger]

Notice in Big Daddy's post #41, third picture (directly above) how the terminal spines and leaf margins are maintaining the "Ember" coloration throughout all of the crown leaves, as viewed in bright light, and that the coloration only slowly fades to a straw color as the leaves slowly age (older leaves can be seen further down on the plant in the second picture of post #41). His plant(s) are very healthy, fast-growing, and in full sun. Notice also in the third picture that the leaf coloration is a glaucous, powdery steel-grey sort of "laser-blending" into greenish-grey tones in and around the leaf imprints. This overall coloration is diagnostic of this cultivar, and is extremely well represented in these photos. This plant is unquestionably classic 'Blue Ember'. Notice in Desert Dweller's post #1 and in Azuleja's post #7 how young plants have inwardly curving and deeply cupped leaves in a lotus flower shape. This is also very diagnostic of 'Blue Ember'. Very young plants have leaves that are even more radically cupped and inward turning.

Now, go to the gallery photos for Agave X 'Blue Emperor'

In Geoff's post # 6 you see a photo of a table full of quart-sized pots of Agave X 'Blue Emperor' plants sitting in a greenhouse at Rancho Soledad Nursery. The plants are probably 6-7 inches in diameter leaf tip to leaf tip. Notice that the leaves curve outward, and not inward. These young greenhouse plants show the slightest tinge of burgundy coloration, but they are basically dark in coloration. In full sun, both the terminal Spines and Leaf margins are a very shiny, jet black coloration that fades to straw color with age...The plant photographed in Geoff's post # 4 is clearly 'Blue Ember' and should be switched to this gallery post and the name on the photo changed to 'Blue Ember'.

Now, go to post #24 on the first page of this thread.

The third photo down in post #24 shows a quite healthy, variegated Agave X 'Blue Emperor'. Notice that the terminal spines are a shiny, jet black in coloration, and slowly fade to straw color as the leaves age. In full sun scenarios, Agave X 'Blue Emperor' terminal spines and leaf margins are a shiny opaque jet black on healthy plants. On healthy Agave X 'Blue Ember' plants, the terminal spines and margins are a translucent burgandy-orange and glow from within when seen lit from behind, much like the hyaline marginal edges as seen on many of the "Table-Top" aloe hybrids such as Aloe X 'Coral Fire' or Aloe X 'Sean Red'.

The Monger

[Agavemonger]

Melt, I will see what I can do.

Remember that Kelly is apparently still using different names for the cultivars than are now being used by Rancho Tissue Technologies, so the arguments in post #24 are about a different plant(s).

I have resorted to using the names as shown on current production plants, because that is what is being reflected out in the real world by wholesale growers buying these liners and tagging the sales plants that are now starting to appear in stores, as reflected in photos of this thread.

The Monger

[Melt in the Sun]

Kelly claimed the variegate is 'Blue Ember', did he not? It certainly doesn't look like a vic-reg/macroacantha hybrid. When he first posted it I thought it was Burnt Burgundy, because the shape is right. He claimed it was a sport of the above, after he just posted the adult 'Blue Ember' photos.

DesertDweller - IMO the plants look rather different when small, but surprisingly similar when grown up. Here are some slightly newer photos of 'Burnt Burgundy' than those I have in the gallery. It looks similar enough in my eyes to BDC's picture in post 13 (copied at the bottom here), that CA vs. AZ could possibly explain the difference in appearance. So all in all, maybe the same cross? Perhaps? But I don't believe they're the same plant.

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[Agavemonger]

Danny: I agree that mature plants of 'Burnt Burgundy' and 'Blue Emperor' look somewhat alike. I still think that they are different enough, though, to maintain both as different cultivars, even though they are similar hybrids.

But you are getting confused again: The photo of Big Daddy's that you put directly above is actually of 'Blue Ember', not 'Blue Emperor'. Even though the lighting is not directly on the plant in the photo, you can still see the red terminal spines and margins on Big Daddy's photo. Notice how the terminal spines on your 'Burnt Burgundy' plant are more of a brown coloration and aren't very big. Now go back to the photo of the variegated 'Blue Emperor' plant and notice how strong and large the plant's terminal spines are and how shiny, jet black they are. That is a strong, diagnostic indicator for Agave X 'Blue Emperor' (The large, pungent, shiny black terminal spines). These spines are much larger and blacker than on 'Burnt Burgundy'. The dominant Black Spines are actually discussed correctly in the description of Agave X 'Blue Emperor' on the Rancho Tisssue Technologies website, although they inexplicably have "kyped" and posted a four year old photo of Big Daddy's Agave X 'Blue Ember' as a photo of the plant.

Boy-oh-Boy! It is going to take a long time to straighten this one out!

(Believe it or not, there are actually fairly distinct differences between all of these plants, which should become more clear once the market becomes flooded with them)

The Monger

[Melt in the Sun]

Yeah I know it's 'Blue Ember'! I understand that 'Blue Emperor' looks nothing like these. Man these names are stupid. I have a hard time believing that Kelly's variegated plant is the same as the 'Royal Spine'-ish plants shown in the 'Blue Emperor' gallery thread, but that's another level of confusion.

I was just showing the general similarity between the two photos. General form, size, color... My 'Burnt Burgundy' has narrower leaves, thinner red-brown margins, and a slightly lighter green color, but is grown harder than BDC's 'Blue Ember'. I can understand why Kelly speculated that they may be the same. However let's dig out some old (ghastly) photos...

'Burnt Burgundy' the day I first planted it, contrast with the young 'Blue Ember' from the top of this thread. Calling these the same plant is a bit of a head-scratcher.

AgaveBurntBurgundy20101103-6.jpg (75.7 KiB) Viewed 8839 times

But then, 14 months later, looks rather like 'Blue Ember'. I know it's not...but isn't it easy to understand the mistake?

AgaveBurntBurgundy20120117.jpg (107.79 KiB) Viewed 8839 times

[Agavemonger]

The problem is that all of these plants (and you could certainly include 'Blue Glow', 'Green Glow', 'Red Margin', dasylrioides, ocahui, pelona, chrysoglossa, etc., etc.,) are of very similar overall form; that is, small-to-medium-sized hemispherical rosette Agaves. It is easy for almost any neophyte to become thoroughly confused by any and all of them. Clearly, even the experts that originated the cultivars are confused enough to make enemies of former friends over these plants!

I would consider this whole argument rather specious and ridiculous except for one little fact: That these plants are, in the aggregate, quite simply the hottest thing going in the Desert Southwest as far as new landscaping décor. If you include the Bay Area and the coast from Texas over to Florida, you are talking about all the gardens of several megalopolises comprising perhaps some 70 million people. That is a really big market for these tough, relatively fool-proof plants.

So regardless of what we all think, there will be a continuing, insatiable demand for plants of this ilk far into the foreseeable future. 'Blue Ember' will take many years to get up to serious production speed, so people will take whatever they can get that is similar. Look at 'Blue Glow'. It has been around for a couple of decades, but just try and come up with a hundred of them for a landscaping project and see how many you can locate. The variegated 'Blue Glows', which hold so much promise, are still only occasionally available in very limited numbers, primarily and rarely in collector markets.

No doubt many of these cultivars are very difficult to tell apart even when under the same expert culture by the same grower. 'Little Shark' and 'Blue Emperor' are very problematic; they are quite similar in appearance, and look similar through many years of growth.

I think that we are finally at a point where the names will "stick"; it is just a matter of getting photos on sites like this sorted out properly and getting more correctly I.D.'d production out into the market. I fully expect to see all of these cultivars around for a long time to come...

The Monger