Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#26

Post by Spination »

latest returns on the Aloe descoingsii (S) X Aloe 'Salt' (P)
I have so much fun giving all the various seedlings their daily quick spray of water, and trying to discern their features as they are revealed more and more. These were transplanted in individual pots in 2 batches. Here are a couple from batch one, now providing a hint of characteristics. While I have not been able to get 'Salt' to set seed, at least I was able to get seed to set on another nice, compact species from Salt's pollen. I know I'm perhaps looking a bit too far into the future, but I'm looking forward to these little guys growing and blooming (within 1-2 years), and hopefully being able to cross them to each other, and back to 'Salt'. If you can't get in through the front door, got to try getting in through the back door. ::wink::
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2016 09 20 Aloe descoingsii S X Aloe Salt P.JPG
2016 09 20 Aloe descoingsii S X Aloe Salt P.JPG (119.61 KiB) Viewed 3508 times
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#27

Post by Jkwinston »

Extraordinary! I had about 3 of these specimens, but they did not survive. I am sure there was one left in the spring, but I have not seen it lately. Great show Tom! Must take a lot of patience keep up with those seedlings. I have done with seeds for the year. Jkw
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

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Post by Spination »

Thanks Winston. I'm going full steam ahead, no slowing down. There's about 20 different and various new seedling batches going right now about the same size as the pic in post 25, some tinier, some bigger. With my full time use of seedling heat mats and LED lighting, both on timers, I can keep going year round, only limited by seeds I have ready to sow and available space on the heat mats. With the LEDs set to come on early AM and off around 9PM, but off during the middle of the day also taking advantage of natural lighting, the seedlings are getting 14-15 hour photoperiods regardless of the actual season, and supposedly getting 70 degree bottom heat, according to mfg specs. The only other provision is small heaters to warm up the rooms used only when temps in winter drop sub 40F. I just sowed my first batch of A. citrea seeds on 9/17; looking forward to seeing what happens with those. I'm almost exclusively working with seeds I have produced, mostly hand-pollinated. I think occasionally I'm getting some hummingbird assistance, the wild-card factor. :)) Every day, I'm out there pollinating more with what I have available in bloom. Also anxiously inspecting developing seed pods for harvest - I try to cut the stalks after the pods are well developed, but catch them before they split open, easier said than done.
Here's another cross I'm attempting right now, paint brush in hand every morning and evening until the last flower is done, perhaps within the next 5 days. Of course, no guarantee the cross will take and seed pods set.
2016 09 20 Aloe Pinwheel a X750.jpg
2016 09 20 Aloe Pinwheel a X750.jpg (99.55 KiB) Viewed 3499 times
2016 09 20 Aloe Pinwheel b X750.jpg
2016 09 20 Aloe Pinwheel b X750.jpg (193.32 KiB) Viewed 3499 times
2016 09 20 Aloe White Lightning a X750.jpg
2016 09 20 Aloe White Lightning a X750.jpg (176.25 KiB) Viewed 3499 times
2016 09 20 Aloe White Lightning b X750.jpg
2016 09 20 Aloe White Lightning b X750.jpg (156.06 KiB) Viewed 3499 times
Can you see a cross between them? D)) Looks good in my imagination, anyway... ::wink::

________________________________
Here's a fascinating preview of a group of seedlings... Aloe Viper (seed) X Aloe sladeniana (pollen). What's amazing is that the A. sladeniana was sent to me in June of last year, already in bloom. Problem.... the sender cut off the bloom stalk. ::x So, I stuck it in water, and took pollen off it every day and used it with an Aloe Viper I happened to have blooming at the same time. Surprisingly, it worked. D)) Got seed pods (on Viper), germination, and a year and 1/4 down the road, seedlings are starting to show off some of their characteristics. Sure, still a long way off from really knowing exactly how they'll shape up...
2016 09 21 Aloe Viper S X Aloe sladeniana X750.jpg
2016 09 21 Aloe Viper S X Aloe sladeniana X750.jpg (104.91 KiB) Viewed 3499 times
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

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Post by Jkwinston »

Absolutely fabulous! Must say I love the story of you placing the flowering stem in water. Jkw
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#30

Post by Spination »

Thanks. A little ingenuity, and a little "why not?". :lol: I mean, cut flowers will last a few days in water, why not Aloe flowers?
Here's the infamous decapitated flower stalk... I guess the pollen was still useful. :U
2015 06 04 Aloe sladeniana flower X750.jpg
2015 06 04 Aloe sladeniana flower X750.jpg (120.69 KiB) Viewed 3497 times
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#31

Post by Spination »

Here's an updated look at the largest of the A. descoingsii (S) X A. 'Salt' (P) cross I made.
2017 04 29 Aloe descoingsii S X Aloe Salt P e.jpg
2017 04 29 Aloe descoingsii S X Aloe Salt P e.jpg (72.19 KiB) Viewed 3451 times
and a handy photo of the pollen parent. I see a great deal of similarity.
2016 02 15 Aloe Salt Variegated flowering a (2) X680.jpg
2016 02 15 Aloe Salt Variegated flowering a (2) X680.jpg (172.65 KiB) Viewed 3451 times
Here's 2 shots of the seed parent, because it's rather amazing the very different looks of the same plant roughly 9 months apart
2016 07 03 Aloe descoingsii #1.JPG
2016 07 03 Aloe descoingsii #1.JPG (281.24 KiB) Viewed 3451 times
In this 2nd shot, perhaps a bit underwatered...but check out the development of the marginal spines. Interesting!
2017 03 28 Aloe descoingsii b.jpg
2017 03 28 Aloe descoingsii b.jpg (75.66 KiB) Viewed 3451 times
All in all, I think the hybrid pollen parent made a significant contribution in the outcome. I'm looking forward to more growth from the seedlings, to gain a better and better view of their potential over time.

Meanwhile, I have other seedlings also in the works, busy growing, also involving the hybrid A. 'Salt'. The real fun will be down the road when I can start working with the seedlings, back-crosses, and other crosses - oh, maybe with this one (if it ever blooms!!!)
2017 04 28 Aloe Hybrid ex DW _ Spain c X800.jpg
2017 04 28 Aloe Hybrid ex DW _ Spain c X800.jpg (212.22 KiB) Viewed 3451 times
or this...
2017 03 18 Aloe Dick Wright Paul Hutchison a X800.jpg
2017 03 18 Aloe Dick Wright Paul Hutchison a X800.jpg (220.61 KiB) Viewed 3451 times
In the meantime though...an opportunity coming right up to cross these 2 'Salt' together. Fun! (and this note added 2/24/18 - these are clones, so crossing together akin to selfing, which clearly does not work on this hybrid. Seedlings can be crossed, yes....clones of the same cultivar, no.)
2017 04 24 Aloe Salt #2 #3 both starting to bloom same time b X800.jpg
2017 04 24 Aloe Salt #2 #3 both starting to bloom same time b X800.jpg (198.41 KiB) Viewed 3451 times
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#32

Post by Spination »

Very recently germinated are seeds of this cross, from both plants - crossed to each other.
'Salt' in the background, and in the foreground another DW hybrid - unnamed.
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2017 01 20 Aloe DW#18 X Aloe Salt x750.jpg
2017 01 20 Aloe DW#18 X Aloe Salt x750.jpg (205.22 KiB) Viewed 3451 times
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#33

Post by Azuleja »

Salt and pepper?
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#34

Post by Spination »

That would be a good name for that last one, wouldn't it. Very black and white theme to it. It is unnamed... so... ::wink::
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#35

Post by Viegener »

From the HBG sale. Is this 'Salt'?
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IMG_7635 Aloe Wright hybrid.JPG
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#36

Post by Spination »

No, but that very well matches the one I have come to believe is A. 'Paul Hutchison', another DW hybrid, based on comparisons with online postings I've found. Mine came from Thailand, the original plant is pictured above, but here's a shot of one of the pups, which is a better plant to compare to yours. In my opinion, an outstanding hybrid, and one of my very favorites...
ironically, that's what I paid for mine too. :))
2017 03 18 Aloe Dick Wright Paul Hutchison P1 b X800.jpg
2017 03 18 Aloe Dick Wright Paul Hutchison P1 b X800.jpg (219.38 KiB) Viewed 3446 times
By the way - nice score! :U
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#37

Post by Spination »

Here is one more very similar DW hybrid, but different to the 'Paul Hutchison'. This selection wound up with Renny's Haworthia, and pups of it wind up on Ebay from time to time. It's name is 'Shaved Coconut'.
2016 12 11 Aloe Shaved Coconut b a.jpg
2016 12 11 Aloe Shaved Coconut b a.jpg (182.9 KiB) Viewed 3441 times
This was a funky plant for me from when I got, never looked really nice and clean. I wound up rotting it this last winter, but luckily I was able to save 2 pups, which are now busy growing. It's got more compact, triangular leaves, but otherwise very similar.
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#38

Post by Viegener »

Looks like a match with 'Paul Hutchison'. It seems like either Dick Wright is not the most meticulous record keeper or that people have come late in valuing his aloe hybrids. Or maybe it's like Kelly Griffin, in people buying his unnamed & de-accessioned seedlings and then giving them names (or numbers, etc) and selling them.

While I'm on this topic, nothing in this territory annoys me more than the way growers sell Bill Baker's dyckia seedlings. I constantly see 'Keswick' advertised for sale, and then buried in the comments is the term F2 or seedling. By any measure, you can't call that a Bill Baker dyckia anymore. A lot of them appear to be open-pollinated "hummingbird hybrids." I wish more growers would put in the hard labor of dividing Baker's excellent named plants (not easy, if you've tried it!) rather than the passive but potentially futile labor of growing out unknown seedling crosses — especially when you see the prices being asked for these random plants. Ok, rant over.
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

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Post by Spination »

To start with, I apologize in advance for my ramblings, because after all said and done, it means little to nothing anyway.

You bring up valid and interesting points, and I'm in agreement with you regarding the Dyckia. I'm on the same page, couldn't add much anything better or more. One just needs to be personally aware of what is what through self-education, and if one wants a particular named plant, use discretion, knowledge, have some knowledge and trust of the seller, and lastly be willing to possibly pay the big bucks. My 'Keswick' came from Eloise Beach, well known Bromeliad grower who bought her 'Keswick' directly from Bill Baker before he passed away. After years, the plant was divided, and years later I guess I wound up with one (Ebay + $$$). It's way different from 2 other supposed 'Keswick' I acquired earlier on, before I realized what was going on with the false use of names on certain hybrids. Mine has divided, but I suspect it's the only one I'll ever get, so I'm naturally timid and reticent at this point in time to mess with it. I'm not taking a saw to it until I'm sure I know what I'm doing, and that I won't cause the plant's demise.

I'm fascinated with the DW Aloe hybrids, but I know the man was also active with Echeveria for example. Aloe were just one of his things. I've tried again and again over the last couple of years to find information regarding the Aloe hybrids, and I've assembled some mental notes from tidbits of information here and there. The most recent was the KG KZ conversation you found where KG talks a bit about DW, and the interesting fact I was not aware of regarding one criteria of selection in his breeding program. KG said that DW used 3 1/4 pots and any plants that extended beyond, he would toss. So, from that, we know he was primarily interested in selecting for miniatures. Also, something I had already surmised on my own, that Aloe descoingsii was a main species behind his crosses, from the comment by KG "his seemed to be highly complex crosses with Aloe descoingsii as the base model and many of his plants still seem to carry that shape."

Also, regarding named hybrids, there appear to be not many, yet I see tons of DW hybrids out there (and sometimes I do wonder if their DW references are legit), from all over the world even, and most seem to be simply designated as "ex Dick Wright", sans name.

Regarding that, there's no book, no registry, no official resource for finding what's what, or what happened - at least beyond lore passed on as anecdotal evidence. Unknown are what records he kept, and what precisely besides miniatures he was breeding/selecting for. But, we do see a plethora of examples as his legacy attributed to him.

I had found one interesting tidbit of info a while back, that he tossed his culls into a canyon out back of his property, and that people visited the area collecting his castoffs, until DW learned of what was happening and began destroying them instead. Which begs the question, how many were collected, how many were collecting them, what became of the plants, and if/when subsequently propagated and distributed - how were they represented (as "DW" hybrid?)? That's just one tangential aspect.

Also, on one of the other threads here where DW was discussed, we saw reference to a person who had bought a nice Aloe hybrid from him, asked for the name, and he said basically to "name it yourself" ! Clearly, if it's our goal to have names attached to distinctive hybrids - we are swimming against the current up some different and significant river forces. In other words, that train has left the station many times over! :lol: I think we have to be satisfied that there are a few out there which have been given names, and are being properly propagated as clones and small-scale distributed in the trade. Also, that the man had one very large influence in the field of Aloe hybrids which continues today. KG refers to Bleck and Wright "these guys were my inspiration for diving in...". Also, we see several of KZ's hybrids with one repeating pollen parent "Aloe 'Paul Hutchison'.

Even regarding say one of DW's most famous creations - the Aloe 'Doran Black', I just purchased another coming from Germany because I want to compare it to 2 others I've acquired. My first came from a grower/collector that I trust, and it seems to match photos on the DW website. The second I bought from a grower in SoCal via Ebay, and I can tell you no way, no how is that the real 'Doran Black'. Yet, someone who really should know better saw fit to dump a bunch out there on Ebay, passing them off as such. Ignorance, or greed? I had ordered 3, and 1 was different in color. Also, they're way too big. Knowing now what I know about DW and the miniatures, anything like this 2nd supposed 'Doran Black' would have wound up in the canyon. ::wink:: The point is here with even one of his most famous creations, fakes are out there ultimately adding to the sea of misinformation and confusion. Additionally, when I posed the question on it's own thread here "Will the real Doran Black, please stand up?", it gave me further insight that it is not clear what is or what isn't that actual cultivar. Time passes, plants change hands, we don't know what happens, we trust that information provided is accurate, but is it? At the least, given human fallibility, we can simply assume that mistakes happen, and then the result is here and there false information is passed on, creating confusion.

I also saw a thread elsewhere where the advice was given - (paraphrased) "go ask the source". That person already had tried to just get a list of named hybrids from DW, through that website, and although told more than once one would be forthcoming, it did not. That person was left with the impression that they don't care. Who knows? Maybe there's an issue with health, or whether there's the will or resources to continue the nursery, but what is clear is that there is no apparent willingness to share information from the only direct source that would still know. I can corroborate that I sent an inquiry myself through the website about acquiring plants, and I never received a response.

We know that DW's work spanned decades, and we're talking old-school. There was no internet, no forever-saved images of original plants. In regard to that, there was a heyday (if not still in continuation), and that buyers from across the planet would come to Ca to buy large quantities of plants for their own subsequent collecting/propagation programs. I've heard stories. One that impressed on me the phenomenon was relayed to me by a nursery propagator hereabouts regarding Echeveria Ebony that some years ago when those were a super hot commodity, that he witnessed a fist-fight in the parking lot of the nursery between two Korean buyers over which was going to buy a bunch of large Ebony plants @ $500 per. Perhaps a little shook up and shocked, he sold the fight's winner the desired plants. My point is that Korean, Japanese, etc plantsmen/buyers have been coming to Ca for decades buying up plants. I recall reading about Rick Nowakowski (Nature Curiosity Shop) and how many of his Gasteria went overseas over the years. One must assume that they also visited other old-timers, such as DW as well. The bottom line is that the only information we actually know is scattered remnants of stories and information passed on by folks who had connection over the years with what happened way back when.

Although I like having a correct name on a plant, I take it all with a grain of salt ( D)) ) now. In the final analysis, one can only try to be diligent in fact-finding and determining what is or isn't within one's own collection, and try to be forthcoming sharing the information when further disseminating those plants. In the end, the plant is whatever it is, the genetics contained within, with a history perhaps lost over the years, but it is either appealing or not, according to the eye of the beholder. It is what it is, and we do what we do. I'm having fun, but I recognize it's a shame that there has been so much done by the trailblazers and pioneers in the field of Aloe hybridizing specifically with the so called "tabletops" that has not been documented, recorded for posterity. Anyway, onward we forge forward into the future, past remembered accurately or not.

There is one clear fact. There are a lot of amazing hybrids out there, something to catch the fancy of anyone, and there seem to be more and more amazing ones coming along all the time. And, there's yet more to be made, and it's far from over. We have the pioneer trailblazers to thank for getting it all in motion, other more current hybridizers who have continued the work, and it would appear a lot of enthusiasts out there as well who I'm sure will come up with more new and interesting stuff over time, from all over the world as it would seem. As I like saying - "It's all good". D))
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#40

Post by Azuleja »

I'll admit I quickly skimmed this :oops: but it seems you left out the greenhouse fire that destroyed much of DW's original collection. That must have been frightening and devastating. It's a shame you can't go visit him and his son at their nursery. As far as I can tell, they take visitors by appt. It's a long way south though.
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

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Post by Spination »

No problem. I admitted it was a ramble right off. :))
That's true, and I agree. To come back from something like that, is amazing in itself. And sure, any and all records up to that point would have gone up in smoke as well.
I have thought about visiting. But, no answer to messages using their own website, and I'm not the only one who has had that same result... so I'm not sure if they are still running, or not.
You know, for that experience, I would make that drive. Would be amazing to see what it is with my own eyes, and hear any stories they'd be willing to share, and pick up some plants if available too.
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

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This was the thread where I best documented the progress (posts 17, 24, 26, 31) of my A. descoinsii S X A. 'Salt' cross, from where the plants bloomed in unison, to the subsequent seed pods on descoingsii, to seedlings and progress to date.
I had speculated that my inability to get two 'Salt' to cross had something to do with this one not selfing, as crossing one clone to another amounts to the same thing. So, my idea was to cross one back to one of it's ancestors - A. descoingsii. My thinking was that if I could get seedlings from that, and eventual flowering, I could cross that back to 'Salt', one of the parent plants, and slowly achieve my goal that way... a back-door approach. What I'm looking for is through multiple generations, to intensify the white textured surface that I find quite appealing about 'Salt'. Using A. descoingsii was not a bad choice, because it also intensifies that compact, small rosette form...and descoingsii also features some slight texturing, so not completely losing out on the likelihood of textured offspring. Anticipating some variation, I was also hoping I'd get at least one select seedling with nice features, that I could use later on, once it blooms.

So, here is the end of chapter one, and the beginning of chapter 2A.
To the left, a pup of the 'Salt' which produced the seedling on the right - the fastest growing (but not necessarily the "best"), and first blooming of the A. descoingsii S X A. 'Salt' P seedling batch
2018 01 20 Aloe descoingsii S X Aloe Salt P with pods from X Aloe Salt pollen b.jpg
2018 01 20 Aloe descoingsii S X Aloe Salt P with pods from X Aloe Salt pollen b.jpg (57.78 KiB) Viewed 3293 times
Those 2 bloomed concurrently, which yielded pods on both. However, 'Salt' was crossed with the seedling, but also with pollen from other things ('Oik', 'Dark Shadows'). I've found from prior crosses in both directions that it doesn't seem to matter much which is the seed parent, and which the pollen parent. In multiple crosses I've made using that idea, I've found that resulting seedlings are much the same, also displaying the same amount of expected variation. So, I didn't wan't to lose out on the opportunity to accomplish multiple goals with these plants, so only the A. descoingsii S X A. 'Salt' seedling got pollen from A. 'Salt' only. I expected that pollen going the other way would just give me more seedlings of the same thing, except switching which was pollen parent and which was seed parent. Anyway, here are the pods in development which pertain to this particular line of breeding. I'm expecting that the results of this cross will be more heavily textured on average than the brood from the A. descoinsii X A. 'Salt' (assuming I get germination) - as these will be essentially 3/4 'Salt', with the X factor being variation, with hopefully at least one or more real standout from the crowd.
2018 01 20 Aloe descoingsii S X Aloe Salt P with pods from X Aloe Salt pollen.jpg
2018 01 20 Aloe descoingsii S X Aloe Salt P with pods from X Aloe Salt pollen.jpg (117.71 KiB) Viewed 3293 times
That seedling, although the fastest growing and first blooming, much represents the average of that seedling batch. However, there was one special one, pictured below which seems to have inherited "more" from A. 'Salt' that I was looking/hoping for. So, it's my "select" seedling of the batch, definitely the "keeper", which will figure into future heavy breeding plans once it blooms. To me, it's a big improvement over it's sibling 2nd photo up on the right.
2018 01 20 Aloe descoingsii S X Aloe Salt P a.jpg
2018 01 20 Aloe descoingsii S X Aloe Salt P a.jpg (73.27 KiB) Viewed 3293 times
And, like 'Salt', it glows in the sun. :))
2018 01 20 Aloe descoingsii S X Aloe Salt P e.jpg
2018 01 20 Aloe descoingsii S X Aloe Salt P e.jpg (66.88 KiB) Viewed 3293 times
A few things learned (or at least confirmed):
Crossing one clone to another clone of the same thing doesn't work - and is the same thing basically as selfing, which most don't do.

Crossing something with a seedling in it's own lineage does work, and amounts to inbreeding, whereby features "good" and "bad" have the opportunity to intensify in the offspring. Selection becomes paramount if specific goals (features and characteristics) are desired, and undesired traits avoided.

As mentioned, it does not appear to matter a whole lot which parent is the seed parent and which the pollen parent, as from crosses I've done already, the seedlings look much the same.

One can expect a degree of variation among seedlings, and a small percentage might better exemplify "most desirable" (subjective) features.


Next step will be the hopefully successful germination of the seeds currently ripening, then germinating and growing, then blooming, and then the next cross (back to 'Salt' - or something even better if available/blooming at the same time) - circa 2 years forward. In the meantime, I expect the "select" seedling will bloom, and a better cross will ensue (back to 'Salt', or seedlings to each other, or even something else). Other potential candidates for crossing are other seedlings of 'Salt' done over the last two years with other hybrids that I like, and in various states of growing (age-wise). Of course, all to be determined later...
Here's one other such cross currently growing, of which "select" seedlings will be found useful...
Opposite cross on each side, one apparently was more productive than the other
The circled ones look to be more like what I'm looking for, although still too early to tell for sure
Inked2018 01 08 Aloe Salt S X Aloe DW #18 P _ left side_LI.jpg
Inked2018 01 08 Aloe Salt S X Aloe DW #18 P _ left side_LI.jpg (112.42 KiB) Viewed 3293 times
Here is the one referred to as ex DW #18
2017 11 11 Aloe Dick Wright Hyb 18 a.jpg
2017 11 11 Aloe Dick Wright Hyb 18 a.jpg (84.14 KiB) Viewed 3293 times
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#43

Post by Marlon Machado »

Many thanks Tom for taking the time to tell us your reasoning in choices for hybridization, and what you are looking for in the resulting seedlings, this is all very fascinating. Well done with the Salt x descoingsii cross, your choice seedling is indeed superb.

I found particularly interesting your observation that it does not matter much the diretion of the crossings. In Sansevieria it does matter, and the pollen parent has a heavy influence in the resulting seedlings.
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#44

Post by Spination »

Thank you Marlon. I have numerous goals with the various hybrids I've collected, and I can probably sum up most of them with the word "more". :lol: With texture - more! Colors (white, blue, etc) - more (or "better") ! I know when we look at phenotype, we only see the visible aspect of the genotype. However, through inbreeding, we can bring out/intensify characteristics we feel desirable that can result in the refining and remixing of the genetics present - visible and hidden - through selection and further breeding of the selected resulting offspring. The few of the best can be used to carry on to achieve desired goals, and the others culled. With each generation, the offspring should be getting more interesting, and I think less diverse as well in terms of variation among the grex, since through selection, those with less desired features are weeded out, and those with most desired features continuing the breeding plan.

With the white textured hybrids, I'm looking for something with more texture and more interesting spines. I had seen an amazing hybrid on a German forum called "Chrystal" - the likes of which I've never seen available anywhere. The tubercles rise out of the leaf, in such concentration and abundance that the plant looks completely white, with a number of the tubercles forming actual teeth coming out of the leaf surface. It looks like someone slathered white cake icing all over it. And seeing that one exists, I am hoping I can make one too. :)) I started with 'Salt' because it's the first of the white textured hybrids I got. I tried and failed to breed them together, and found as I had suspected that it would not work. Seedlings can be crossed together, but clones of the same thing not so much. Now, I do have other white textured hybrids acquired since, and would love to breed them together, but the problem is they don't necessarily bloom at the same time. I've found that with 'Salt' crossed with descoingsii (a close ancestor), the progeny bloom roughly at the same time (so far anyway) as 'Salt', or at least the coinciding is expected to be a high percentage. This makes it easier to accomplish line breeding if the results tend to bloom in tandem with the parent plants.
I think if I cross my select seedling back to 'Salt', I should be able to improve the incidence of tubercles on the resulting progeny. And so on, and so forth.

The fact that I have only 1 or 2 in roughly 20 that I feel is most worthy to breed back to the parent plant, also reinforces the value of selection. I have to wait longer for those to bloom, but in the meantime, the one I bred back to 'Salt' should also move me in the right direction, with perhaps better progeny yet to further the breeding plan. Anyway, best case scenario in this case was from seed to bloom in 2 years, giving an idea of the amount of time involved. Long way to go. I think another 2 generations I'll have something I really like!

With KZ's 'Dragon', that was achieved by crossing two different seedlings or clones of the cross A. divaricata X A. parvula together. I'm sure that the 2 "best" were selected, and from that progeny, she got 'Dragon', and also 'Princess Jack' - two she apparently felt worthy of naming, and subsequently TC for eventual distribution. I would guess that if a 'Dragon' and a 'Princess Jack' (2 different clones) were crossed together, possibly even more extreme results could be achieved.

Here's a close up shot showing clearly the leaf surface of "select" seedling #1, in which spines seemingly running down the center of some leaves can be seen. Cool!
2018 01 22 Aloe descoingsii X Aloe Salt select #1 b.jpg
2018 01 22 Aloe descoingsii X Aloe Salt select #1 b.jpg (62.11 KiB) Viewed 3258 times
This is the 2nd best one - not quite as nice, but not bad.
2018 01 22 Aloe descoingsii X Aloe Salt select #2 a.jpg
2018 01 22 Aloe descoingsii X Aloe Salt select #2 a.jpg (202.63 KiB) Viewed 3258 times
In contrast, a batch of others showing the more "normal" ones...
2018 01 22 Aloe descoingsii X Aloe Salt others a.jpg
2018 01 22 Aloe descoingsii X Aloe Salt others a.jpg (99.87 KiB) Viewed 3258 times
I think I could breed the 2 best seedlings together with results I'm looking for, or either/both back to 'Salt' and again achieve improvement in the next generation. Anyway... need to wait for some more blooming - I have a few more years of "work" (fun) to do.
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Spination
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#45

Post by Spination »

Marlon - interesting too what you found with Sansevieria that the pollen parent seems to have more influence. The only such information I was aware of is in the case of Haworthia, where maternal influence can increase the incidence of variegation (where the mother plant is variegated) in seedlings, due to cytoplasmic inheritance, whereby apparently the genes for variegation reside in the cytoplasm - and the pollen is irrelevant in that regard. All of the DNA residing in the cytoplasm comes from the mother, and none from the pollen donor - at least certain genes anyway (of which variegation is probably the most notable and evident). Based on sparse information I have read, the Japanese have pioneered this idea and no doubt is why the coolest variegates and such have originated there for years.
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#46

Post by Marlon Machado »

Hi Tom, in Sansevieria, a variegated plant will yield some variegated seedlings, and also lots of albinos (in my experience it is like 47.5% green, 47.5% albino and 5% variegated). But what I have observed in bidiretional crosses with Sansevieria, is that the pollen parent has a stronger influence in some characteristics of the offspring. For example, I crossed S. parva and S. trifasciata, both ways. The seedlings with parva as the seed and trifasciata as the pollen parent are stronger and larger-growing than the seedlings of the reverse cross. And it is not only between species, but hybrids also display this, with the pollen parent having a stronger influence in the offspring. The difference is that crosses between species are usually more uniform than crosses between hybrids, due to recombination.
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#47

Post by Spination »

A marvelous opportunity afoot, that I've been awaiting for a long time. One is about half-way through, and the other first lower flowers opening, but surely chances going forward to exchange pollen between the two. Some seed pods on one or both of a cross between these two is something I've been hoping for since I've had these plants for several years now. Now I just need a little luck that the opportunity yields some success!
2018 02 24 Aloe ex Dick Wright SPAIN _Aloe Salt d.jpg
2018 02 24 Aloe ex Dick Wright SPAIN _Aloe Salt d.jpg (209.8 KiB) Viewed 3188 times
2018 02 24 Aloe ex Dick Wright SPAIN _Aloe Salt c.jpg
2018 02 24 Aloe ex Dick Wright SPAIN _Aloe Salt c.jpg (66.97 KiB) Viewed 3188 times
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#48

Post by Spination »

Part of the long ago envisioned and hoped for cross underway... of course, the germination part once seed pods are ripe is not guaranteed, but... one step at a time. ::wink:: Not sure if 'Salt' will develop pods, but definitely 'Salt' pollen is responsible for the pods on the other, so I'm very happy with the progress so far...
2018 03 13 Aloe ex DW SPAIN and Aloe Salt a.jpg
2018 03 13 Aloe ex DW SPAIN and Aloe Salt a.jpg (232.08 KiB) Viewed 3161 times
What I'm looking for is some of this action (distinctive spines and interesting texture) here....
2018 02 10 Aloe ex DW SPAIN b.jpg
2018 02 10 Aloe ex DW SPAIN b.jpg (72.18 KiB) Viewed 3161 times
to manifest in the next generation. The qualities of the pollen donor should not detract much after the mix of genes responsible for the qualities of both plants

And, mainly because it was there and handy, and I like this plant too... After trading pollen between the above 2 plants, I used that brush with the mix of those two plants' pollen on the flowers of this one below.
2018 03 13 Aloe Walnut Hill S x Aloe ex DW SPAIN P and Aloe Salt P.jpg
2018 03 13 Aloe Walnut Hill S x Aloe ex DW SPAIN P and Aloe Salt P.jpg (84.62 KiB) Viewed 3161 times
Hard to see which is which in that mess - but it's this plant here. Quite a conflict between the looks of this plant and the pollen donor(s), but should be interesting to see what happens between all that.
2018 01 05 Aloe Walnut Hill Blue and Pink a.jpg
2018 01 05 Aloe Walnut Hill Blue and Pink a.jpg (128.8 KiB) Viewed 3161 times
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#49

Post by Spination »

Here is the progress of the subject of post #42, representing a milestone for me. The picture doesn't look like much, and they never do at this stage, but an important development. These are my very first 2nd generation seedlings. They are seeds from my hybrid of Aloe descoingsii (S) X Aloe 'Salt' (P) back-crossed to the main parent plant of interest, Aloe 'Salt'. It is something I had the idea of long ago, and years later it's finally underway.
If I could have, I would have bred two 'Salt' together, but unfortunately, they are all clones of each other, so no-go. The next best thing was to get seedlings involving the hybrid (so that was back-crossed to one of it's recipe parents - Aloe descoingsii), and then eventually cross the best results back to 'Salt'. Well, here is one now finally. The idea is to hopefully within the realm of expected variation within a batch of seedlings achieve a more extreme version of 'Salt'. More texture. Texture on top of texture. :lol: Alas, another 2 years will need to pass before I can continue to the next step in the plan, which would be to cross the best of these seedlings to each other, back to 'Salt' again, and whatever other things I come up with over time that will get me closer and closer to what I want. Inbreeding, or line breeding is the surest way to isolate and intensify desired characteristics, combined with selection... so here we go. :))
2018 04 14 Aloe descoingsii S X Aloe Salt P _S_ X Aloe Salt P _ 2nd Gen seedlings.jpg
2018 04 14 Aloe descoingsii S X Aloe Salt P _S_ X Aloe Salt P _ 2nd Gen seedlings.jpg (272.38 KiB) Viewed 3143 times
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Re: Interesting Dick Wright hybrid

#50

Post by Steph115 »

Very cool Spiny. It's awesome how quickly these iterations go with the "table top" aloes. Just to make sure I understand correctly - when you refer to "clones" do you mean plants that come from the same seed pod?
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