more Aloe seedlings

[Spination]

Blame it on Marsha Layhew, Jeff Karsner, and Corduroy.

[Azuleja]

Sounds like a couple of old plant fanatics and their worn out teddy bear.

[Spination]

I think that's what is, or something very close to it.

[Spination]

4th Wiley Coyotee seed has germinated. Happy days. Not bad out of 7 seeds to start.

What could be better?
This plant... I just love those spines. They're even popping out of the leaf surfaces, so cool. How fun would it be to get some of that genetic influence in some seedlings?

2017 08 20 Aloe ex DW Spain a.jpg (73.14 KiB) Viewed 3573 times

Closer look at that texture and bizarre spines...

2017 08 20 Aloe ex DW Spain aa.jpg (67.24 KiB) Viewed 3573 times

Action!

2017 08 20 Aloe ex DW Spain b.jpg (150.27 KiB) Viewed 3573 times

Pod final tally

2017 09 18 Aloe ex DW SPAIN pods a.jpg (63.73 KiB) Viewed 3573 times

Every day since I sowed the seeds, I've been looking, looking, looking. This must be what it's like to be a mother hen waiting for eggs to hatch... Yesterday, thought I was seeing something. Today, no doubt about it!

2017 11 07 Aloe DW SPAIN X a.jpg (250.55 KiB) Viewed 3573 times

[Spination]

So, I gave it a try with TCT. They do take Paypal, and do provide Phyto and CITES documents, so all good! Looks like there will be a couple of their hybrids on the way soon, among them a pup each from these 2 mother plants. Don't know how big they are or what they look like exactly right now, except for what they're going to eventually look like if I can do a good job growing them. I think they're pretty awesome. As far as I know, these are two original TCT hybrids. I'd say they are doing some really amazing and original work, or at least they appear to have taken it to a new level I haven't seen or had access to before.

It's a Dyckia, right? Nope!

85 Mother Plant Blue Shark a.jpg (57.84 KiB) Viewed 3560 times

I have a couple which are similar to this, but nothing nearly as outrageously cool as this one!

97 Mother Plant Blood Jaw a.jpg (57.76 KiB) Viewed 3560 times

[reality_velo]

Nice looking aloes! There Facebook page is quite impressive with all the pictures.

Let us know when you get them, and how they look!

[Azuleja]

I'm excited for you!

[Marlon Machado]

Wonderful Tom, I always drool at the pictures of Aloe hybrids from TCT, but I never had the courage to buy anything. First, I fear the parcel will just be confiscated, second, if by chance it arrives, the mail in Brazil is so slow that I fear I will only get dead plants. Usually it takes one or two weeks for the parcel to arrive here from abroad, but then it can take up to two months after that for the parcel to be delivered. For Sansevieria it is not a problem, they can take it, but Aloe is more sensitive, and the plants and cuttings TCT sells are quite small.

I am trying to convince the owner of TCT to sell me seeds - with the good genetics their plants have, I am sure any resulting seedling will become a nice-looking plant.

[Marlon Machado]

Below is TCT's latest offering of plants, most seem to have been sold already:

https://www.pantown.com/board.php?id=89 ... ction=view" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Spination]

Thanks. I'll definitely update with how it goes, but based on the fact that I didn't have to do any bank transfer, and was able to use Paypal (buyer protection)...and that they will provide Phyto and CITES, I have every expectation that it will work out just fine. My experience with buying from Thailand sellers is 100% perfect. Why would this be different? Anyway, I feel pretty good about it.

Marlon, that's exactly the list I bought from. Unfortunately for me, it was my first time, so a learning curve. As I understand it now, it's like an auction site, and if you want to guarantee that what you want will be yours, you have to post on that page and claim the plants you want before someone else does. Instead, even though I sent my order by email, and very early and quick, and before anyone else who also wanted what I wanted ...the time stamp on that page takes precedence. Now that I understand how it works, I'll do much better next time. As it is, I missed out on a couple of very cool (to me) plants...but from that list, I'm getting #8, 30, 35. Two of those I didn't really want, but decided to fill out the order (package) more when 5 of the ones I selected went to someone else who obviously had some prior experience, or more smarts, and knew how that listing page works. # 85, 97 are the two pictured above (mother plants), and although I didn't win the pictured offsets, I was given the opportunity to take "reserves" from them, which is his way of saying an extra offset from each that he had also available. And yes, most of those plants were sold within one day of posting. Obviously, they've got a very exciting and hot thing going on with the aloes, and much demand. That probably explains the jump in average prices I saw from the previous list in summer.

Also, regarding seeds - I've seen mention that TCT does sell seeds. I'm not sure that you can pick and choose from what the seeds are from exactly, but it looks to me like they have done some ground-breaking work creating hybrids with fantastic features... so I think there's a good chance some of his seeds would yield something very nice and interesting even if the seeds are random. Obviously, with both Sans and Aloe... they have a huge advantage growing there with year round excellent growing conditions - whereas the rest of us Northern Temperate Zone growers have to deal with the few months of winter when not much growing-wise is really happening.

[Spination]

I think one of my Wiley Coyotee seed parent seedlings is going to be variegated. The other day, the one looked obviously off. I thought perhaps it was behind the others developing coloration, or that it was albino and would die. However, it's growing quite well so far which seems to indicate it's not an albino, but because it's so obviously different from the others which are quite green, it's probably variegated. Anyway, something to watch for and hope. That would be extra cool! Out of only 7 seeds, 4 well under way, and a 5th breaking the soil surface.

2017 11 09 Aloe Wiley Coyotee S X a.jpg (171 KiB) Viewed 3558 times

[Agave_fan]

That ordering process looks complicated but I am sure it would look less intimidating if I knew the language.

Glad you got a few plants Spiny, look forward to hearing about them and seeing them soon.

Congrats on the Wiley Coyotee babies popping up! You are a bad influence on me with these aloes as I have collected WAY too many since I caught the bug this past summer. (I blame you and Azuleja)

I also decided to attempt to cross pollinate a few of mine just to play around with and have bulging pods on all that I attempted so I need to start researching soon on the next steps. lol

[Spination]

So, certainly not summer anymore, and fall is nearing it's final 1/3... but still plenty going on with blooming aloe hybrids.
I didn't get my wish with the two A. castilloniae flowers open for business at the same time, but still opportunity for other crosses. With not an excess of choices right now, this plant's pollen is going on Aloe 'Sal', and today on the last couple of remaining flowers on Aloe 'Salt'. Although I got no seed pods on the first flowering a few months ago, that pollen was applied, and some of the seedlings of 'Dark Shadows' should be the result of this castilloniae pollen, and if lucky, then the seedlings from the single pod of A. 'Wiley Coyotee' are also from the ones pollinated by castilloniae. I didn't mark which flowers were pollinated with what, but I know which plants were in the mix and in time I should be able to figure out what happened. Whatever exactly, it was all good stuff.

2017 11 09 Aloe castilloniae a.jpg (98.46 KiB) Viewed 3555 times

This one is a bit slower developing with the flowers, but it seems to be on the same schedule as one particular A. 'Oik', which I think would make an interesting cross. I was thinking because this plant is so different from the other which is definitely A. castilloniae, that perhaps that this one is a hybrid. It doesn't have the typical recurved leaves, and the bumps on the leaves are not present on the others. However, now that I'm seeing the flowers, and a complete match in structure and development with the other plant, I think it's far more likely it's a variant or cultivar, rather than a hybrid. If it was actually a hybrid, I would expect there to be at least something quite different in the flowers, which I'm not seeing at all.

2017 11 09 Aloe castilloniae possible hybrid a.jpg (85.72 KiB) Viewed 3555 times

And this plant intended to be crossed with the one above

2017 11 09 Aloe Oik a.jpg (275.69 KiB) Viewed 3555 times

The pollen of castilloniae above has been going on this, for lack of a better alternative at the moment

2017 11 09 Aloe Sal a.jpg (73.3 KiB) Viewed 3555 times

And today (and tomorrow), more pollen from the A. castilloniae on the newest upper flowers (I'm marking them this time) of this particular A. 'Salt'.

2017 11 09 Aloe Salt .jpg (245.81 KiB) Viewed 3555 times

Agavefan... a sincerely disingenuous apology for contributing in passing to you the Aloe hybrid bug. I'm quite happy to have helped nudge you over to the "dark side". We need more of us here in the U.S. doing various crosses too! Who knows what we'll come up with?

Yeah, I think the Thai script contributed to my not completely understanding the ordering process right off. No problem though. This time around is the trial and getting up to speed, next time I expect to score a few more outrageously interesting ones.

Best of luck on your crosses, and hopefully some fantastic results.

[Agave_fan]

Agavefan... a sincerely disingenuous apology for contributing in passing to you the Aloe hybrid bug. I'm quite happy to have helped nudge you over to the "dark side". We need more of us here in the U.S. doing various crosses too! Who knows what we'll come up with?

I probably have no business even playing around with them Spiny as I need to do a lot more research to even have a legit idea of what I am doing. For example, I thought about what characteristics might compliment others for selecting which plants to use and was writing down what I crossed with what thinking this was all I really needed to do but as I was attempting the cross pollinate, a hundred (slight exaggeration) questions popped up like..... Ok, I am being careful extracting pollen from plant A (using a fine long hair brush) and depositing in plant B but aren't I just going right along the pollen on the stamen on plant B trying to get to the stigma and in the process couldn't I be helping it pollinate itself? Then I thought....should I be removing the stamen on the plant I am trying to pollinate to prevent accidentally pollinating the plant with its own pollen? But then I thought....If I remove the stamen, how would I do it, would I gently remove the entire thing or just clip the tips with the pollen? Thinking a little more....Could removal cause pollen to go airborne and result in what I am trying to prevent? Hmmm and then...Would removing the stamen prior to pollination impact the integrity of the pistil/stigma that I am trying to fertilize? So you see..... not a hundred questions but you get a picture of how my mind wandered. My random searches so far have not answered any of these questions so I am assuming none are legit questions/concerns but it does show I definitely need to put more time into research. lol

Although I probably sound completely clueless, prior to playing around with aloe pollination, I did rip open a flower to help me understand the anatomy and I did do a little research on stamens and pistils ect. I read that the pollen drops before the stigma is ready to prevent self pollination on some aloe but I still have a LONG way to go in even understanding basics so...... I promise to not let any of my little bastards (if I have survival) outside the house to further confuse this crazy taxonomy when it comes to identifying true subspecies/varietal.

[Spination]

I think anyone who has ever tried or thought about getting seed to develop successfully has had most if not all of those same thoughts. You're doing great thinking it all through, and considering the various factors and possibilities.
I always had a thing for just about anything math or science, and in my one year of college a million years ago, did take Botany as a breather after my very first semester taking things like Chem 1A, Anatomy, Calculus, and Physics. And... I got an A, and probably the easiest I ever got. Honestly, I could know next to nothing though and still be able to do what I'm doing, and that goes for pretty much anyone. The plant's flowering process effectively eliminates unintentional results given what you learned about anthers first, and stigma later. By the time the stigma appears and is ready for pollen, the pollen from that flower is pretty much done with so at least an individual flower is mechanically equipped to prevent self fertilization. There's a learning curve of nuances, but practice makes better and better. In the beginning, I was transferring pollen from one flower to another without too much thought or precision, now I recognize that the newest flowers to open (higher up the inflorescence) are the best pollen sources, and the slightly older flowers are the best pollen receptors, and in time one notices the white stigma where the pollen should be going, thereby eliminating wasted efforts trying to pollinate something that isn't ready, or past ready.

A helpful tip, and which I read some while back written by Kelly Griffin, is that earlier AM and later PM are the most opportune times for doing the work. I would say that's because typically the warmer parts of the day cause reproductive parts to dry up, rendering efforts less effective than earlier. If I had to say, AM is probably optimal.

I like to use a relatively fine paint brush (like something a model builder might use to paint models). I try to use a brush that has a point at the end of the bristles. One good reason is that the flowers on some of these hybrids are small and delicate, and don't open much. Without a fine point to get that brush inside, not much good will come of any efforts. If I have to, I'll modify the brush tip with a scissors to make it pointier. Also, cleaning the brush after each intentional cross decreases the odds of pollen going somewhere unintended. Even if it's unintentional, is that so bad? Other than either not knowing the 2nd 1/2 of the parentage, or guessing, or just plain being wrong, the results are what matters. They're either going to be appealing, or not.

Also, one can plan all they want thinking about how to engineer characteristics to combine, but the genes have a mind of their own. Dominant, recessive genes are going to be in play, and the characteristics one is hoping for might not combine as wished. So, in that respect, it still comes back to trial and error anyway. There will be variation within a group of seedlings, so selection of what one considers desirable will take part in the process as well.

Which all leads to probably the biggest thing - patience.
After one figures their best procedure for germination, it's still going to be about a year before the seedlings really start to show what they're all about. In the beginning, they all look alike, literally. Later, things like spines and texture and color begin to show, and one can get an inkling after looking at enough of them develop over time to anticipate what they're going to be roughly.. but really it takes at least a year before one can really appreciate what it is exactly that was created, and then in all likelihood, another year before it's quite clear, and which might then be of flowering age to be used again to cross with something else.

In any case, it's fun. There are worse ways to spend a portion of one's time.

There are a few who seems to espouse sentiment such as "don't try this at home folks - there's a lot more to this than it appears". I say nonsense. It's not even close to rocket science, and people who make it out to be something really profound or complicated are either afraid of the competition, or desperately in need of ego enhancement. If you enjoy it, do it, and who cares what some know-it-all might think or have to say about it. In the end, after a fair piece of time has gone into making any particular seedling, it's the result that counts. Also, that old adage of beauty being in the eye of the beholder...

PS To add a conclusion or summary, the price of admission is just having the plants. Once they're yours, you can do with them as you please. The rest is just being willing to try, to learn as one tries, and in time, ease and expertise will follow.

[Azuleja]

I've read that KZ sometimes pollinates with just her fingertips. So, yes do try it at home. If and when I do any pollinating, I'll be including at least one parent with repeat blooms and/or some cold tolerance. Those are really desirable traits to me.

Oh, and thanks for the name drop, lol. Obsession loves company.

[Agave_fan]

Great info Spiny, thanks for taking the time to write it all out. Interesting on pollinating with fingertips Azuleja, shows I am being quite anal with worrying about how careful I am being with a fine brush but unfortunately, even this information won't prevent that.

Currently I am using this brush, I think it was made for doing lettering detail? I love the length of the hairs for getting deep into the flower and even though the hairs are slender/tapered, perhaps I need one with only a few hairs instead:

brush.jpg (44.38 KiB) Viewed 3539 times

I always had a thing for just about anything math or science

Me too Spiny which is why it drives me nuts not being able to identify every plant I have with certainty. Even a consensus on my 'x' is likely this or that, I still want to PCR (yes, I know how to do this) the damn thing to make sure. That is the black and white science part I have a hard time letting go of and I feel these aloe hybrids are far worse when it comes to knowing the black and white so it is a love/hate relationship for me.

[Azuleja]

I wouldn't actually use my fingers either, but it's nice to know that you don't have to duplicate lab procedures to be a mad aloe scientist.

[Spination]

Looks like I dropped the ball there AF - I think that's a very nice (expensive) brush, and even better than what I use. My favorites came in a variety pack from the Dollar Store

Here are some seedlings coming along out of which it looks like there should be at least one or more winners out of the batch. It's a cross between Aloe Sunrise (seed) and Aloe Lavender Star (pollen). The rosettes would be more compact if they had been transferred to stronger light sooner, but they'll straighten themselves out in time and show they're truer form. I see some stuff there already I like though...

2017 11 24 Aloe Sunrise S X Aloe Lavender Star P Batch 2 b.jpg (115.34 KiB) Viewed 3522 times

[Jkwinston]

Absolutely wonderful, Tom. And they look very healthy, considering the time of the year. Keep at it. Jkw

[Spination]

Thanks Winston. I'm definitely keeping at it. After an inauspicious beginning to the year, everything lately is germinating, and a lot of stuff on the way. The lack of success early this year just made me double my efforts afterwards, with much better success. Not sure what happened earlier, because I'm doing the same as when things were going good the previous years, and now once again. Just luck of the draw I suppose. Crosses with ex Dick Wright hybrids, KZ hybrids, and KG hybrids, and misc. others I like. I'm pretty sure there's going to be at least a few interesting results showing their stuff in the next 6-12 months.
A few of the newest currently in progress...

2017 11 24 various aloe seedlings a.jpg (150.11 KiB) Viewed 3523 times

[Jkwinston]

The great effort you have invested has absolutely paid off. I must admit that I have not attempted any hybridising so far, but I usually hope that some of my plants would do some self-fertilising. It has not happened lately, and certainly not this year. And yet years ago without any effort, I do remember that I used to get the odd seed pods. Jkw

[Spination]

Thank you. I agree that the odd seed pod by happenstance without effort from really nice plants can yield interesting results, relying completely on pollinators (insects, birds)...but I think with paintbrush in hand, and applying imagination trying to visualize the possible combinations of features, and deliberately choosing partners among a group of favorites might be more productive, if not more satisfying. Some of the parent plants of those tiny seedlings in that photo above make me drool, and there just has to be some potential in those currently nondescript seedlings - with some potential of coming up with an "improvement" here and there. In any case, I'm enjoying it, and that's probably what matters most.

[Spination]

The TCT hybrids arrived A-OK. They're a bit small, and roots very trimmed back to little-to-none. The two long leaved ones have the typical shipping ordeal leaves-folded-closed thing going on. I have no complaints, and I'm looking forward to them recovering from shipping, and growing so I can see how they going to shape up and what they'll look like in time. I should mention they added two unexpected free hybrids as "gift" - and they're nice too - or at least I like them OK.

2017 12 01 Aloe Blood Jaw TCT #97 Nov 2017 a.jpg (69.36 KiB) Viewed 3469 times

2017 12 01 Aloe Blue Shark TCT #85 Nov 2017 .jpg (65.69 KiB) Viewed 3469 times

2017 12 01 Aloe TCT #8 Nov 2017 a.jpg (45.27 KiB) Viewed 3469 times

2017 12 01 Aloe TCT #30 Nov 2017 a.jpg (46.67 KiB) Viewed 3469 times

2017 12 01 Aloe TCT #35 Nov 2017 a.jpg (72.54 KiB) Viewed 3469 times

2017 12 01 Aloe TCT G1 and G2 Nov 2017 a.jpg (56.38 KiB) Viewed 3469 times

Since they're not much to look at right now, I'll post new pics after they've had time to recover and they start showing their stuff.

Interesting too, this is the second parcel received from Thailand recently where the authorities have completely ignored usual protocol of opening/inspecting. There was Phyto and CITES documents inside the box, so it would have been fine anyway. Kind of wondering if they're overwhelmed with holiday parcels and so cutting corners, or loosening up regarding scrutiny of SE Asia parcels?

[Woodlily74]

Well Done Spiney! What inspration.Exellent selection of hybrids. Just think of what you can create with thoes genetics. Thanx for sharing BTW does TCT provide parentage? Just wondering...