Aloe deltoideodonta v Brevifolia ???
Moderator: Geoff
- Spination
- Ready to Bolt
- Posts: 5266
- Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:06 am
- Location: Sonoma, Ca.
Aloe deltoideodonta v Brevifolia ???
Not listed in the gallery, I'm wondering if anyone can confirm or dispute the ID for this plant.
I acquired it 2 years ago along with some other hard to find aloes from a collector thinning out his collection.
It's now blooming for the first time.
I acquired it 2 years ago along with some other hard to find aloes from a collector thinning out his collection.
It's now blooming for the first time.
-
- Offset
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:55 am
Re: Aloe deltoideodonta v Brevifolia ???
Tom, do you have Aloe ruffingiana? Your plant looks a lot like the one I have under that name. Although it could be just a different form, since all of them are sunk under Aloe horombensis these days...
Aloe deltoideodonta Baker var. brevifolia H. Perrier is a published name, but it is regarded as a synonym of Aloe horombensis J.-P. Castillon - the name Castillon uses to replace the name Aloe deltoideodonta Baker, that according to him is a synonym of Aloe madecassa H. Perrier
Below is a link to the paper where all the changes are proposed (in French):
http://sciencepress.mnhn.fr/sites/defau ... a5-low.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also, take a look at this map with locations for all the different forms:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mi ... 015616&z=6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Aloe deltoideodonta Baker var. brevifolia H. Perrier is a published name, but it is regarded as a synonym of Aloe horombensis J.-P. Castillon - the name Castillon uses to replace the name Aloe deltoideodonta Baker, that according to him is a synonym of Aloe madecassa H. Perrier
Below is a link to the paper where all the changes are proposed (in French):
http://sciencepress.mnhn.fr/sites/defau ... a5-low.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also, take a look at this map with locations for all the different forms:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mi ... 015616&z=6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Geoff
- Moderator
- Posts: 5267
- Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:12 am
- Location: Acton, California 93510
Re: Aloe deltoideodonta v Brevifolia ???
looks like Aloe deltoideodonta var deltoideodonta... or the 'type' form of Aloe deltoideodonta. Pretty sure brevifolia is some cultivational addition added by someone... but looks pretty typical to me.
- Spination
- Ready to Bolt
- Posts: 5266
- Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:06 am
- Location: Sonoma, Ca.
Re: Aloe deltoideodonta v Brevifolia ???
OK, thank you. It looks like the information on it was pretty much from Europe. A German source indicated the difference was shorter leaves and shorter inflorescence - and that's about it, which supports your comment about perhaps a cultivar or variety.
- Jkwinston
- Ready to Bolt
- Posts: 1682
- Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:30 pm
- Location: London UK
- Contact:
Re: Aloe deltoideodonta v Brevifolia ???
Tom, I have a similar plant without a label, and it was only recently that I was inclined to believe that it could be a Aloe deltoideodonta. I have had it for about a year, and it has grown very slowly. Have a look and tell me what you think. Jkw
-
- Offset
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:55 am
Re: Aloe deltoideodonta v Brevifolia ???
Aloe deltoideodonta Baker var. brevifolia H.Perrier
published in: Mémoires de la Société Linnéenne de Normandie. Botanique. 1(1): 24. 1926
Aloe deltoideodonta Baker subsp. brevifolia (H.Perrier) Rebmann
Basyonym: Aloe deltoideodonta Baker var. brevifolia H.Perrier
Published in: International Cactus Adventures 84: 24. 2009
Well, the above shows that Aloe deltoideodonta var. brevifolia IS a valid name, not "some cultivational addition added by someone" as Geoff put it... Then of course it is a matter accepting this name as representing something different from typical A. deltoideodonta or not. Current view is that it is not different, so yes your plant would be just A. deltoideodonta.
Then there is the fact that the name A. deltoideodonta has been synonymized with A. madecassa, and a therefore there was a need of a new name for the plants formerly known as A. deltoideodonta. And thus the name Aloe horombensis J.-P. Castillon was described for the plants formerly known as A. deltoideodonta. In the paper he makes these changes, Castillon puts Aloe deltoideodonta var. brevifolia as synonym of A. horombensis, thus making it the same as the typical form of the species.
published in: Mémoires de la Société Linnéenne de Normandie. Botanique. 1(1): 24. 1926
Aloe deltoideodonta Baker subsp. brevifolia (H.Perrier) Rebmann
Basyonym: Aloe deltoideodonta Baker var. brevifolia H.Perrier
Published in: International Cactus Adventures 84: 24. 2009
Well, the above shows that Aloe deltoideodonta var. brevifolia IS a valid name, not "some cultivational addition added by someone" as Geoff put it... Then of course it is a matter accepting this name as representing something different from typical A. deltoideodonta or not. Current view is that it is not different, so yes your plant would be just A. deltoideodonta.
Then there is the fact that the name A. deltoideodonta has been synonymized with A. madecassa, and a therefore there was a need of a new name for the plants formerly known as A. deltoideodonta. And thus the name Aloe horombensis J.-P. Castillon was described for the plants formerly known as A. deltoideodonta. In the paper he makes these changes, Castillon puts Aloe deltoideodonta var. brevifolia as synonym of A. horombensis, thus making it the same as the typical form of the species.
- Spination
- Ready to Bolt
- Posts: 5266
- Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:06 am
- Location: Sonoma, Ca.
Re: Aloe deltoideodonta v Brevifolia ???
Winston, looks like the same thing.
Thanks Marlon for the info. That's pretty much what I had found here:
http://www.kuas-kettinger.de/index.php/ ... brevifolia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In the last section "BemerKungen:" - here is where the question arises which seems to call into question whether the v Brevifolia is legit: (translated)
"The variety presented here differs from the type variety by the shorter and broader leaves (up to 10cm long and up to 5cm wide instead of 13cm long and up to 3cm wide), the lower inflorescence (up to 30cm high instead of 60cm), the shorter (up to 10cm instead of 20cm) and denser flower clusters, the somewhat shorter flowers (up to 2.2cm instead of 2.5cm) and the dissimilar distribution area. However, this information should be treated with caution, since both the type variety, and presented here var. Brevifolia is problematic from a botanical point of view: The type variety is the problem that the type site is not known (Baker gave in his description as the origin only "central Madagascar" was later added to plants that fit (more or less exactly) to the description of Baker, but without being able to be sure that these are really the plants that Baker once described, see J.-B. + J.-P. Castillon (2010), p. 172), while the variety presented here is not sufficiently researched (possibly because its distribution area is very remote). J.-B. + J.-P. Castillon (2010) also note that Benenitra only grows similar but much larger aloe imalotensis var. Longeracemosa, whereas plants that fit the description of aloe deltoideodonta var. Brevifolia only found further east (between Benenitra and Betroka) , But as Betroka itself already grows the mostly larger but variable in its size Aloe deltoideodonta var. Intermedia (*), they suggest that these two varieties are only two extreme forms of otherwise identical plants - Text to the var. Intermedia write that they only consider them to be an extreme form of the type variety (J.-B. + J.-P. Castillon (2010), p. 178). If both statements were correct, then one would have to treat both varieties as synonyms of the type variety. Take this step J.-B. + J.-P. Castillon (2010) but not, and so we continue to treat the two varieties separately - especially since Rebmann chooses in a us unfortunately not available article from the year 2009, the opposite way and raises the variety presented here even in the rank of its own subspecies (p Carter et al. (2011), p. 706). In our culture, a plant grown from seed under the name "Aloe deltoideodonta var. Brevifolia" requires regular watering, but is otherwise unproblematic. The pictures show a plant from the SSZ, which (hopefully correct) is labeled "Aloe deltoideodonta var. Brevifolia".
I figured that an entry absent in the Gallery likely meant that v. Brevifolia might be questionable due to the controversy. I appreciate the additional comments and information.
Thanks Marlon for the info. That's pretty much what I had found here:
http://www.kuas-kettinger.de/index.php/ ... brevifolia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In the last section "BemerKungen:" - here is where the question arises which seems to call into question whether the v Brevifolia is legit: (translated)
"The variety presented here differs from the type variety by the shorter and broader leaves (up to 10cm long and up to 5cm wide instead of 13cm long and up to 3cm wide), the lower inflorescence (up to 30cm high instead of 60cm), the shorter (up to 10cm instead of 20cm) and denser flower clusters, the somewhat shorter flowers (up to 2.2cm instead of 2.5cm) and the dissimilar distribution area. However, this information should be treated with caution, since both the type variety, and presented here var. Brevifolia is problematic from a botanical point of view: The type variety is the problem that the type site is not known (Baker gave in his description as the origin only "central Madagascar" was later added to plants that fit (more or less exactly) to the description of Baker, but without being able to be sure that these are really the plants that Baker once described, see J.-B. + J.-P. Castillon (2010), p. 172), while the variety presented here is not sufficiently researched (possibly because its distribution area is very remote). J.-B. + J.-P. Castillon (2010) also note that Benenitra only grows similar but much larger aloe imalotensis var. Longeracemosa, whereas plants that fit the description of aloe deltoideodonta var. Brevifolia only found further east (between Benenitra and Betroka) , But as Betroka itself already grows the mostly larger but variable in its size Aloe deltoideodonta var. Intermedia (*), they suggest that these two varieties are only two extreme forms of otherwise identical plants - Text to the var. Intermedia write that they only consider them to be an extreme form of the type variety (J.-B. + J.-P. Castillon (2010), p. 178). If both statements were correct, then one would have to treat both varieties as synonyms of the type variety. Take this step J.-B. + J.-P. Castillon (2010) but not, and so we continue to treat the two varieties separately - especially since Rebmann chooses in a us unfortunately not available article from the year 2009, the opposite way and raises the variety presented here even in the rank of its own subspecies (p Carter et al. (2011), p. 706). In our culture, a plant grown from seed under the name "Aloe deltoideodonta var. Brevifolia" requires regular watering, but is otherwise unproblematic. The pictures show a plant from the SSZ, which (hopefully correct) is labeled "Aloe deltoideodonta var. Brevifolia".
I figured that an entry absent in the Gallery likely meant that v. Brevifolia might be questionable due to the controversy. I appreciate the additional comments and information.
- mickthecactus
- Moderator
- Posts: 2870
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:36 am
- Location: Hertfordshire UK.
Re: Aloe deltoideodonta v Brevifolia ???
I have the varieties fallax and candicans. What has happened to them then?
- Spination
- Ready to Bolt
- Posts: 5266
- Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:06 am
- Location: Sonoma, Ca.
Re: Aloe deltoideodonta v Brevifolia ???
I have fallax as well. I don't know about candicans, but it is mentioned here...
https://www.smgrowers.com/products/plan ... nt_id=3216" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.smgrowers.com/products/plan ... nt_id=3216" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
-
- Offset
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:55 am
Re: Aloe deltoideodonta v Brevifolia ???
Mick and Tom, both fallax and candicans are kept as subspecies of Aloe horombensis, see the paper below:
http://sciencepress.mnhn.fr/sites/defau ... a5-low.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://sciencepress.mnhn.fr/sites/defau ... a5-low.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
-
- Offset
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:55 am
Re: Aloe deltoideodonta v Brevifolia ???
The link I posted above also have really nice pictures of these plants in habitat.
Below is a map showing the location of all the different forms in this group:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mi ... 015616&z=6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Below is a map showing the location of all the different forms in this group:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mi ... 015616&z=6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
-
- Offset
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:55 am
Re: Aloe deltoideodonta v Brevifolia ???
Aridlands offers a nice selection of these plants:
http://aridlandswholesale.com/oscommerc ... ath=25_383" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://aridlandswholesale.com/oscommerc ... ath=25_383" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Spination
- Ready to Bolt
- Posts: 5266
- Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:06 am
- Location: Sonoma, Ca.
Re: Aloe deltoideodonta v Brevifolia ???
Thanks for all of that info. Looks like I unwittingly opened a big can of worms with this thread. I see the abstract was published in 2014, and A. horombensis is actually the older/original name as well. How odd too that the namer's own son was the one responsible for the later renaming to deltoideodonta. Given I never heard of homombensis before, I guess it goes to show once again that the trade is reluctant to assimilate change when it comes along.
- mickthecactus
- Moderator
- Posts: 2870
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:36 am
- Location: Hertfordshire UK.
- Spination
- Ready to Bolt
- Posts: 5266
- Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:06 am
- Location: Sonoma, Ca.
-
- Offset
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:55 am
Re: Aloe deltoideodonta v Brevifolia ???
You should also read this Tom:
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... rrhoeaceae" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The story is far from being finished
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... rrhoeaceae" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The story is far from being finished