Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#26  Postby Woodlily74 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:43 pm

Do you think A. Juvenna could be a common relative in CC and DB?
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#27  Postby Woodlily74 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:45 pm

Tom do ya think A. juvenna could be the common relative in both Christmas Carol and Doran Black?
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#28  Postby Woodlily74 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:50 pm

Tom, Yes both sibs are forming stems. To me this might suggest a common relative. Perhaps A. juvenna?
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#29  Postby Spination » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:14 pm

I'm thinking that your thinking is reasonable, and the interesting thing is how the unseen characteristics of ancestor plants can manifest in the progeny of seedlings crossed together. Very cool stuff. That last plant pictured is a real looker. Very nice!

Isn't it great when there's a sizable enough collection that there's almost always something blooming? Also very cool is how many of these plants will bloom multiple times during the year. allowing for more crossing possibilities with others. I only wish there was a way to speed up the seed to seedling to blooming plant process. I guess it could be worse - at least there are frequent opportunities to make seeds, as opposed to Agave, where opportunities are measured in a number of years, rather than months. ::wink::

Regarding A. juvenna - likely I suppose. In my notes I have that A. 'Doran Black' is "a complex cross of aloe species including A. albiflora, A. bakerii, A. descoingsii, and A. juvenna." So, that does confirm juvenna as something there in DB's background.
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#30  Postby Spination » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:10 pm

Woody, also...my compliments to the chef regarding getting seed from Christmas Carol. That one was been very elusive for me. After many tries, I finally did get seeds on one of mine last year, but then no germination. :U:
I expect it takes some real skill or know how to get that one to cooperate. ::wink:: Kudos.
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#31  Postby Stone Jaguar » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:31 pm

I agree. Congrats on a nice result. That young plant strongly reminiscent of the widely-coveted ‘Marsha Layhew’ to my eye. Just germinated my first complex hybrid, ’Wrasse’ x pseudoparvula “Super Blue” , but will definitely keep my eye on ‘Cristmas Carol’ flowerings this year to drop interesting pollen on. Tom pointed out to me early on that this was one of the truly great novelty aloes, notwithstanding its ubiquity on eBay and at C&S nurseries.
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#32  Postby Woodlily74 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:16 pm

Both of the CC x DB seedlings I got on eBay from Bulgara a Natasha Ellis. She had several more seedlings out of CC but I was outbid😭
World of Succulents suggest that Doran Black is the parent of Christmas Carol.
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#33  Postby Marlon Machado » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:37 pm

Woody I second Tom and Jay in the congratulations, that second seedling is amazing!

I also had difficulty setting seed on Christmas Carol, Doran Black and Donnie, and all three are not good pollen donors either... That is, to other small fantasy hybrids. I crossed Donnie with striata, and got lots of seeds in both! I also got seeds crossing a Christmas Carol with aristata. I am looking forward to see the results of these crosses!
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#34  Postby Spination » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:05 pm

That's pretty interesting Marlon. First, good luck with the seeds. I'm wondering what the issue is with getting seed on CC in particular when crossed with other hybrids, whereas you are getting successful pollination when crossing it to a species. I often wonder if my technique for some reason on that one is poor, or if it's not a good cross with previous selections of other hybrids (inbred too much??? :huh: ). I have a CC blooming now, first bottom flower opened today. Pollen was good, very noticeable on the paintbrush. But, there's no wind inside where it is, and it is freshly opened. Today, I traded pollen back and forth with A. 'Pickled Pink', also in bloom. Probably, CC not quite ready to accept pollen, but maybe by tomorrow that flower will be ready to receive. Anyway, another opportunity to try once again. ::wink::
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#35  Postby Spination » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:03 pm

Guess I'll add a pic of this one in this thread since it does fit the description, and looking quite nice already as a small plant, and having only received it just over a month ago...
2018 01 06 Aloe Blood Jaw b.jpg
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#36  Postby Marlon Machado » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:03 pm

The 'Blood Jaw' is looking quite good Tom! Well done. I hope it grows well and fast, make a lot of offsets, and soon become more widely available :))

Christmas Carol, Doran Black, Coral Edge and Donnie are plants I found to cross poorly with other hybrids, and also to species of Madagascan origin (I have tried parvula, haworthioides, rauhii, bakeri, ruffingiana, perrieri, without success). Perhaps they form a different line incompatible with other hybrid lines. If it is because of juvenna genes I do not know - but a friend here has sucesfully crossed Christmas Carol and juvenna (I have one of his seedlings). And I have successfully crossed Donnie with striata, and Christmas Carol with aristata. So perhaps the influence of juvenna genes make these hybrids incompatible with other hybrids and species from Madagascar, and compatible with species from mainland Africa. Food for thought.
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#37  Postby Spination » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:36 am

Thanks Marlon. Yes - offsets! That would be nice. Really looking forward to flowers, but I suppose it's too young - maybe another year sounds about right. I think it's one of my very favorites now. Here's a different view of a plant in the first post I'd love to cross it with eventually... similar enough to accentuate some qualities (like color and interesting margins) in progeny I think, but different enough to create some new variations too. Of course, I have all these "dream" crosses in mind, but it's completely up to the plants to cooperate by blooming at the same time... :lol:
2018 01 05 Aloe Walnut Hill Blue and Pink b.jpg
2018 01 05 Aloe Walnut Hill Blue and Pink b.jpg (68.28 KiB) Viewed 83 times


Interesting theory regarding A. juvenna having caused incompatibility among certain potential crosses - I'll have to keep that in mind, as you say, food for thought.
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#38  Postby Woodlily74 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:49 am

World famous and fabulous Aloe Wily Coyotee by Karen Zimmerman's. I'm hoping mine blooms soon.
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#39  Postby Spination » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:56 am

That's a nice view. Here's a shot of mine - an original from HBG which did bloom last year (only 1 seed pod but 7 seedlings slowly growing), side by side with another I got last year in a trade. Both have been right next to each other for months. Interesting how the one which colored up over the summer is maintaining it's lovely purplish look, and the new one maintaining it's green state. D))
2018 01 08 Aloe Wiley Coyotee pair b.jpg
2018 01 08 Aloe Wiley Coyotee pair b.jpg (84.01 KiB) Viewed 67 times

Interesting is the variation among them (teeth and texture)
2018 01 08 Aloe Wiley Coyotee pair a a.jpg
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#40  Postby Stone Jaguar » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:34 pm

Hi, Tom.

Those do not look like the same clone to me. I can understand color and even form changes due to different growing conditions, but the lack of tubercles on the upper leaf of the trade plant, the apparently different marginal tooth morphology and the very different color after time spent side-by-side seems worthy of comment.

There is plenty of room for chimeras and sports developing in a TC jar (this is, after all, where many micro propagated variegates originate), but that trade plant looks very different to my eye.
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#41  Postby Spination » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:39 pm

I believe I have a reasonable explanation. The trade plant was going to be thrown away by the owner due to a pest, but I happily offered to take it. He sprayed it with neem oil before sending, and when I got it, I sprayed it with a cocktail of Bayer 3 in 1, Avid, and Sevin. So, it no doubt absorbed a healthy dose of chemicals into the leaf tissue, no doubt affecting it, at least for a while. It did come with the official HBG tag, so I'm pretty sure it is what it's supposed to be. Maybe in spring, I'll give it a soak in clean water, and I expect over the next year it should resume some normal coloration. The good news is there's no sign of pest activity. D))

EDIT - but, it could be as you say, a sport or something like that, just looking at the texture and teeth, and ignoring color.
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#42  Postby Stone Jaguar » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:52 pm

The neem oil might be the culprit, but I still am reluctant to buy it. I have used Bayer 3 and 1, abamectin and Sevin pretty freely on this type of aloe quite a bit and this has never prompted any noticeable reaction from the plants. I am more focused on the texture of the upper leaf surfaces and the marginals shown in the photos. While conceivably a reaction to chemicals, I doubt it.

The best commercial growers I know mix up labels on occasion. IME, it is rampant in hobbyists.

You will know soon enough. It's a nice enough looking hybrid, even if it isn't Wily.
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#43  Postby Spination » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:07 pm

I hadn't really thought about it... just attributed it to variation - but the more I consider it, I think you're on to something regarding the texture and marginals. And yes, I'm also pretty sure the neem oil is why the color is off, as that had been done before it arrived, and the color was already different (from what I expected) when I opened the box. I was happy to get it, as I thought it already looked like it should be of flowering size, and I was thinking (hoping) that if the two could flower at the same time, it would be interesting to cross them together and see what mess comes out of it. :))
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#44  Postby Azuleja » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:21 pm

If I understand correctly, Spiney's plant on the left (with fairly smooth upper leaf surfaces) was an original from HBG and the plant on the right, also from HBG was received in trade and has been treated with neem and pretty much everything else. Here are my two. The one on the left is a pup from Spiney's plant on the left. It shows some upper leaf surface tubercules. The second was purchased at the HBG fall sale. I haven't repotted it yet. It shows some green on the lower leaves. Both have been growing together for a few months.
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#45  Postby Spination » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:41 pm

Nice! Beautiful coloring on both, and of course...the lovely spines and tubercles.
You got that all right except that the one you got from me was not a pup from my one, but one of two original plants I got shipped from HBG at the same time. For some reason, the one I kept was much faster growing, and the one I sent you slower growing. I could have sent you a pup that mine was making, but it would have been much smaller yet. You had sent me a 'Princess Jack' on my wish list, so I sent you the smaller of my original two Wileys in appreciation, rather than a smaller pup in progress. Coincidentally, Jay got the pup it was making at the time. Lucky me though, that Wiley has made two more pups now... one growing in it's own tiny pot, and the other left attached to mom. D))
It's one of KZ's best creations to date of stuff out there (although I'm dying to see 'Secret Agent' in person when available ::wink:: ), IMO.
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#46  Postby Azuleja » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:46 pm

D'oh, that's right! Oops, I forgot. I was thinking to myself, wow my pup grew a bunch! I do think you should travel to HBG for the spring show if that's when 'Secret Agent' is released. You would have so much fun buying aaaallll of the plants!
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#47  Postby Spination » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:31 pm

Seriously, I wish I could.
It's not likely I'll be able to get away, given that I'm one and only 24-7-52 care-giver for my dad, who is slowly but surely recovering from a big-time stroke in July. The only way I could get away with it would be to bring him with me, and as things stand right now where he is in his recovery, that would be asking a lot... too much most likely.
My time off and vacations consist of me going out to work with my plants - 10 to 20 minutes at a time, here and there. Thank goodness for that! D))
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#48  Postby Woodlily74 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:03 am

Some more blue leaves with red teeth.
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Ellis seedling 17
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Christmas Sleigh
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#49  Postby OLD BLUE » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:06 pm

I am new to Agaveville but do have a Blue KG aloe that I have wondered for quite some time what it’s real name was, if in fact it had an actual name. I received this KG aloe from Billy Neupert (succulentfan), LA, back in June 2010. We made a trade through Dave’s Garden. I sent him a number of agave and echeveria and he sent me a number of aloes and a few KG aloe hybrids offsets. I lost most of the various KG aloes to mites which at that time was a totally new problem I had to learn how to defeat. One aloe that has survived and thrived is one that Billy said he named ‘Pink Panther’. He said he named it because Kelly hadn’t given this one a name? Here are photos of the aloes he had in his collection back in 2010.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/succulentf ... 62282735...
I am in So. Cal. and have grown this fairly hard outside year round, under shade cloth in the worst of summer. It has always stayed much darker blue then what it appeared when it came from Louisiana. The leaves are about 5 inches long and ½ wide. They have nice translucent teeth. Sometimes it will put out a leaf with a solid tooth bar. I hope someone can give me a name. KG14 is close, maybe?
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Pink Panther?
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Pink Panther closer
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Re: Similars with blue leaves and red teeth (hybrids)

Post Number:#50  Postby Spination » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:41 pm

I don't recognize it as a "named" hybrid, so I think the name it got https://davesgarden.com/community/journ ... ry/219200/ is as good as any. Doing a search, I found yours, and 2 others with the same name - none look alike. I think the name yours got is the best fit, IMO... and the nicest looking at that.
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