New Agave Hybrids released

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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#26  Postby MJP » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:49 pm

Photos of the other Agave affinis pseudosalmiana

PDN Green Goblet - 1.jpg
'Green Goblet' at PDN
PDN Green Goblet - 1.jpg (132.04 KiB) Viewed 273 times
PDN Logan Calhoun - 1.jpg
'Logan Calhoun' at PDN
PDN Logan Calhoun - 1.jpg (157.49 KiB) Viewed 273 times
PDN Bellville - 1.jpg
'Bellville' at PDN
PDN Bellville - 1.jpg (142.72 KiB) Viewed 273 times
JCRA pseudosalmiana - 1.jpg
JCRA form
JCRA pseudosalmiana - 1.jpg (85.19 KiB) Viewed 273 times
Saltillo - 1.jpg
my 'Saltillo'
Saltillo - 1.jpg (131.74 KiB) Viewed 273 times
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#27  Postby Luc » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:46 am

What I meant is that Agave pseudosalmiana (Invalid name) must be rather scribed Agave aff. salmiana ( Scientific name ) and considering the form of the inflorescence and Zac's investigations, it would be better to call them Agave aff. gentryi or Agave aff. asperrima or to be more prudent, just Agave x 'Saltillo', Agave x 'Bellville' and so on.
But let's not play around whith it, it doesn't really matter.

In any event, thank you for these beautifull photos and let us know if you have other new informations.

And guys ! Nobody else to post your thoughts about the subject ! :?
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#28  Postby MJP » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:03 am

In my view, since these plants have a history of being called Agave salmiana, it is clearer, more helpful, and less confusing to call them Agave pseudosalmiana (the false salmiana) instead of assigning them to a taxon that they do not fit. So, in this logic, I shall continue to call them Agave pseudosalmiana even though that is not at this point a legitimate taxon. It does, however, give us an unconfused place to start. Then name may not last, but it has its use for now.
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#29  Postby Paul S » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:57 am

Luc wrote:
And guys ! Nobody else to post your thoughts about the subject ! :?


My thoughts on this subject are that this conjecture is simply that - conjecture. A bit of armchair ruminating. Not sure it even makes it as far as a hypothesis. So to start ascribing a name to it seems a bit forward, really. But then, as I recently had pointed out to me, I am nothing but a European with no peer reviewed papers published and a Mexico tourist to boot, so my opinions count for very little.
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#30  Postby Stone Jaguar » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:26 am

MJP:

Good luck with the hybrids. I hope they turn out to be successful in horticulture.

From my cursory read of this thread, it seems that you propose that a hybrid swarm or previously unidentified taxon deserves a new name. All good. However, the use of a lower case latinized epithet implies it is, or once was, a validly published species. When I read “pseudosalmiana” here, my first thought was that you meant “pseudotequilana” (syn.) and my subsequent thought was that I had missed the recent description of a new agave species.

As Luc points out, the descriptors “aff.” or “cf.” are fine when used to refer to or compare with a valid sp., so this might be properly refered to as “Agave aff. asperrima”, etc.

Without going too deep into this, as a suggestion for purposes of clarity and conformity with generally accepted norms, your plants might better be refered to on succulent plant fora as Agave sp. “pseudosalmiana” - with quotation marks, no italics.

J
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#31  Postby KLC » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:22 am

Paul S wrote:

My thoughts on this subject are that this conjecture is simply that - conjecture. A bit of armchair ruminating. Not sure it even makes it as far as a hypothesis. So to start ascribing a name to it seems a bit forward, really.


This is what I was thinking too^^^

Anything more from me on the subject would clearly demonstrate how little I know.
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#32  Postby MJP » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:21 pm

This is very simple - and definitely NOT meant to upset people.

The simple part is this:
1) These agaves ('Bellville'; 'Green Goblet'; JCRA clone; 'Logan Calhoun; 'Saltillo';) are not Agave salmiana; which leads to
2) We need to recognize this; which leads to
3) By what name shall we call them?

That is all.

I have made a suggestion for a name.

It is a start.
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#33  Postby Stone Jaguar » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:41 pm

Doesn’t seem anyone is even remotely upset. I was merely pointing out that your name as used earlier in the thread lends to confusion in that it suggests that it is a validly published species, which at this stage it apparently is not. If the description is currently in preparation or in press, then that should be indicated for clarity’s sake. The use of “pseudosalmiana” or any other “name” as written (bracketed, not italicized) seems fine for casual hort use by hobbyists to indicate an opinion of indeterminate status. If it turns out these plants are natural hybrids, other nomenclatural may rules apply.

Just my POV.
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#34  Postby KLC » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:58 pm

Not upset at all friend.
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#35  Postby Paul S » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:23 am

I'm not remotely upset - amused, maybe, but nothing to be upset about here. :)

Edit - I was unable to find any specific location data on a cursory Google for some of these plants - anyone know? Agave 'Green Goblet' is from Sierra Chiquita TMPS but the other two? 'Bellville' description says it comes from Texas, in which case it is unlikely to have any gentryi in the mix?
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#36  Postby abborean » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:27 am

From the initial explanation I would think the intention of the name "pseudosalmiana" was clear. Nothing worse than plants being called something they are not. All of these plants are apparently cultivars of mixed ancestry. A nickname or cultivar name is preferable to calling a plant salmiana that is something else.
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#37  Postby Paul S » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:44 am

The intention was clear enough - I don't think anyone is arguing or disputing that. It was the format that the name has been written that is questionable - as explained in posts #27 and #30.

I would additionally question the reasoning behind it as I believe some massive assumptions are being made - all with the the disclaimers and caveats of my post #29 , of course :)
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#38  Postby abborean » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:24 am

Paul S wrote:The intention was clear enough - I don't think anyone is arguing or disputing that. It was the format that the name has been written that is questionable - as explained in posts #27 and #30.

I would additionally question the reasoning behind it as I believe some massive assumptions are being made - all with the the disclaimers and caveats of my post #29 , of course :)


Was speaking to the topic in general Paul. Not your particular comment. Sorry about that.
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#39  Postby MJP » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:19 am

As for the possible genetics of the group - it is not difficult to surmise the likely species involved.

1) Zac Hill has already identified flower traits of these plants that are shared with Agave asperrima;
2) Wade Roitsch and Carl Schoenfeld (not too long ago) discovered a population of agaves that were produced from the mingling of three species: Agave asperrima; Agave gentryi; and Agave americana ssp. protamerica. From this population they removed an offset of a plant that they famously named 'Tres Equis' to signify this population of introgression of three agave species;
3) The group of green, non-salmiana agaves under discussion have forms that are very large ('Bellville' and 'Logan Calhoun') that in size rival Agave americana ssp. americana. Agave americana is the only large agave of the genus within the natural range of where these green agaves occur in habitat or as domesticates in surrounding areas.
4) Agave 'Saltillo' has red bracts - a trait of Agave gentryi and a trait not shared by Agave americana or Agave asperrima.
We therefore have as possible (seemingly likely) parental stock for Agaves 'Bellville'; 'Green Goblet'; JCRA clone; 'Logan Calhoun'; and 'Saltillo' the following species:
Agave americana; Agave asperrima; and Agave gentryi.
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#40  Postby DesertDweller » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:53 pm

DesertDweller wrote:
Melt in the Sun wrote:
MJP wrote:In 2016 three of my Agave ovatifolia bloomed.
They received pollen from - and donated pollen to - Plant Delights Nursery.
Three seedling batches of the hybrids that resulted have just been released by PDN.
1) Agave ovatifolia x flexispina aka 'Blue Rapture';
2) Agave [(lophantha x pseudosalmiana) x ovatifolia] aka 'Twisted Tongue';
3) Agave victoriae-reginae x ovatifolia aka 'Queens Whalecome'

have a look if you wish

https://www.plantdelights.com/collectio ... ue-rapture

https://www.plantdelights.com/collectio ... ted-tongue

https://www.plantdelights.com/collectio ... -whalecome

Cheers,

Mike

Very cool...I have a soft spot for victoriae-reginae hybrids, but the price is gonna keep me away from that one :(


I was also tempted, but hard to make out from the pictures exactly how much they lean one way or the other. Maybe if they add better pictures of that one, but I struggled mightily and eventually spent the $$$ on some others they had on offer. Still tempted though. :frown:


So... I wanted to get A. gracilipes that PDN had added since my last order, but in an effort to fill out the box, I kinda fell off the wagon and added a 'Twisted Tongue' as well as one of those pricey A. v-r x ovatifolia hybrids. :oops:

Will add some pics of the hybrids once they're potted up. They just arrived today so still in quarantine and basking in some Forbid. Everything looks pretty good though. :U
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#41  Postby Spination » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:09 pm

MJP wrote:As for the possible genetics of the group - it is not difficult to surmise the likely species involved.

1) Zac Hill has already identified flower traits of these plants that are shared with Agave asperrima;
2) Wade Roitsch and Carl Schoenfeld (not too long ago) discovered a population of agaves that were produced from the mingling of three species: Agave asperrima; Agave gentryi; and Agave americana ssp. protamerica. From this population they removed an offset of a plant that they famously named 'Tres Equis' to signify this population of introgression of three agave species;
3) The group of green, non-salmiana agaves under discussion have forms that are very large ('Bellville' and 'Logan Calhoun') that in size rival Agave americana ssp. americana. Agave americana is the only large agave of the genus within the natural range of where these green agaves occur in habitat or as domesticates in surrounding areas.
4) Agave 'Saltillo' has red bracts - a trait of Agave gentryi and a trait not shared by Agave americana or Agave asperrima.
We therefore have as possible (seemingly likely) parental stock for Agaves 'Bellville'; 'Green Goblet'; JCRA clone; 'Logan Calhoun'; and 'Saltillo' the following species:
Agave americana; Agave asperrima; and Agave gentryi.


Looks like I missed out of some of this discussion toward the end. The post quoted is very interesting! Great info! :U
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#42  Postby DesertDweller » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:21 pm

Here are some shots of the A. 'victorifolia' hybrid, for the curious:

IMG_7384.JPG
A. 'victorifolia'
IMG_7384.JPG (100.33 KiB) Viewed 106 times


IMG_7391.JPG
A. 'victorifolia'
IMG_7391.JPG (44.56 KiB) Viewed 106 times


IMG_7392.JPG
A. 'victorifolia'
IMG_7392.JPG (47.08 KiB) Viewed 106 times


IMG_7393.JPG
A. 'victorifolia'
IMG_7393.JPG (62.22 KiB) Viewed 106 times
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#43  Postby Azuleja » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:39 pm

Jealous
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#44  Postby MJP » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:38 am

Well done!

To see is to want - and now I do ever so dearly want one.
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#45  Postby Melt in the Sun » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:56 am

Neato - I wonder if it will lose those spines as it grows, like many other v-r hybrids.
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#46  Postby Bananaguy » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:04 pm

Pretty cool looking and thanks for the pics.
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#47  Postby Spination » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:08 pm

It is a great looking plant, and compliments on the photography - excellent close up shots.
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#48  Postby agavegreg » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:43 pm

Stone Jaguar wrote:MJP:

Good luck with the hybrids. I hope they turn out to be successful in horticulture.

From my cursory read of this thread, it seems that you propose that a hybrid swarm or previously unidentified taxon deserves a new name. All good. However, the use of a lower case latinized epithet implies it is, or once was, a validly published species. When I read “pseudosalmiana” here, my first thought was that you meant “pseudotequilana” (syn.) and my subsequent thought was that I had missed the recent description of a new agave species.

As Luc points out, the descriptors “aff.” or “cf.” are fine when used to refer to or compare with a valid sp., so this might be properly refered to as “Agave aff. asperrima”, etc.

Without going too deep into this, as a suggestion for purposes of clarity and conformity with generally accepted norms, your plants might better be refered to on succulent plant fora as Agave sp. “pseudosalmiana” - with quotation marks, no italics.

J

I completely agree here that the use of made up names being italicized gives the impression that it is a valid species name when it is not. Maybe best to say Agave aff. salmiana, although in the case of 'Saltillo' I would say there is no relationship to A. salmiana based on the lack of large succulent bracts on the relatively thin stalk. However, I digress, when using names to address affinities to one species or another, it is best to use aff. and forego the use of the "pseudo-----", or simply write (pseudo-----) and forego quotes altogether as single quotes denotes a valid cultivar name and double quotes would be too similar. Also, hybrids should have the multiplication sign before the name.
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#49  Postby MJP » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:53 am

Spination wrote:
MJP wrote:As for the possible genetics of the group - it is not difficult to surmise the likely species involved.

1) Zac Hill has already identified flower traits of these plants that are shared with Agave asperrima;
2) Wade Roitsch and Carl Schoenfeld (not too long ago) discovered a population of agaves that were produced from the mingling of three species: Agave asperrima; Agave gentryi; and Agave americana ssp. protamerica. From this population they removed an offset of a plant that they famously named 'Tres Equis' to signify this population of introgression of three agave species;
3) The group of green, non-salmiana agaves under discussion have forms that are very large ('Bellville' and 'Logan Calhoun') that in size rival Agave americana ssp. americana. Agave americana is the only large agave of the genus within the natural range of where these green agaves occur in habitat or as domesticates in surrounding areas.
4) Agave 'Saltillo' has red bracts - a trait of Agave gentryi and a trait not shared by Agave americana or Agave asperrima.
We therefore have as possible (seemingly likely) parental stock for Agaves 'Bellville'; 'Green Goblet'; JCRA clone; 'Logan Calhoun'; and 'Saltillo' the following species:
Agave americana; Agave asperrima; and Agave gentryi.


Looks like I missed out of some of this discussion toward the end. The post quoted is very interesting! Great info! :U
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Re: New Agave Hybrids released

Post Number:#50  Postby MJP » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:37 pm

Thanks for all who gave guidance on proper use of nomenclature. Much appreciated.

Thanks too for all the thoughts on parentage or lack thereof.

I still think Agaves 'Bellville'; 'Green Goblet'; 'JCRA Clone; 'Logan Calhoun'; 'Saltillo'
1) form a coherent assemblage of cultivated selections; and
2) need a name other than Agave salmiana because they do not fit within the parameters of that species.

I beseech the populace of Agaveville to offer a way forward - or shall we simply keep calling them Agave salmiana?
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