Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
- Gee.S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9596
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:42 pm
- Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
- USDA Zone: 9b
- Contact:
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
We returned to the site referenced in Post #59, and drove by the mini-verdensis pop again, and by George, we finally struck pay dirt. We found active bloom stalks on the mini-verdensis and another unknown domesticate Agave growing 100m away. There is a third Agave there as well, for which we have not yet seen blooms. As suspected, despite an uncanny resemblance to A. verdensis (plants look identical except roughly 1/3 the size), blooms are entirely distinct, bearing little resemblance to any other domesticate Agave. Blooms on the other favor A. yavapaiensis, but plants appear distinct.
We also found blooms galore at the other locale, confirming the domesticate air previously suspected. There are domesticate A. parryi around, a natural and robust A. chrysantha pop, and all manner of apparent introgression with A. verdensis and A. yavapaiensis (or perhaps a couple convincing domesticate doppelgangers).
We also found blooms galore at the other locale, confirming the domesticate air previously suspected. There are domesticate A. parryi around, a natural and robust A. chrysantha pop, and all manner of apparent introgression with A. verdensis and A. yavapaiensis (or perhaps a couple convincing domesticate doppelgangers).
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- Steph115
- Ready to Bolt
- Posts: 528
- Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:42 pm
- Location: Dallas, Texas | Zone 8a
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
The colors in 021 are brilliant! Gorgeous photos, as usual. I wonder about your last unknown agave at the nursery. Leaf morphology almost looks mangave-like to me. It's a looker as well.
- Gee.S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9596
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:42 pm
- Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
- USDA Zone: 9b
- Contact:
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
Sorry, not sure which post you're referring to. No 021 in the most recent. Posts are numbered.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- Steph115
- Ready to Bolt
- Posts: 528
- Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:42 pm
- Location: Dallas, Texas | Zone 8a
- Gee.S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9596
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:42 pm
- Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
- USDA Zone: 9b
- Contact:
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
Yes that helps. And yes, 021 is A. phillipsiana, the most elegant and attractive of the AZ domesticates, IMHO.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- Gee.S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9596
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:42 pm
- Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
- USDA Zone: 9b
- Contact:
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
Today we visited our second known mini-verdensis site, some 30 miles from the first. There may be more, perhaps even more that we've seen without realizing these plants represent a taxon distinct from verdensis, the resemblance is that remarkable. This second pop has decidedly different bedfellows from the first, sharing a small mesa with A. parryi, another unknown domesticate or unknown domesticate (A. phillipsiana?) × A. parryi hybrid, and a small Sinagua pueblo. Many A. parryi are clearly introgressed. Our mini-verdensis here present as shy of identical to the first, and some differences may result from more moderate growing conditions, but leaf shape and marginal spines are not quite the same. OTOH, bloom stalks are the same in every respect, including bloom time, size, number of flowers. Flowers measure out as similar, but are colored differently. One is left to wonder at this point, why ancient Sinagua native Americans were interested in producing these minuscule Agaves.
On our way out, we stopped by one of our favorite A. yavapaiensis haunts, and regret to report yet another eriophyid mite infestation. Sigh....
On our way out, we stopped by one of our favorite A. yavapaiensis haunts, and regret to report yet another eriophyid mite infestation. Sigh....
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- Gee.S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9596
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:42 pm
- Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
- USDA Zone: 9b
- Contact:
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
Another mini-verdensis comparison. Close, but not quite.
Site 1
Site 2
Site 1
Site 2
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- Azuleja
- Ready to Bolt
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:23 am
- Location: CA | Zone 9a | Chaparral
- Gee.S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9596
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:42 pm
- Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
- USDA Zone: 9b
- Contact:
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
More comparison -- knee shots.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- Gee.S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9596
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:42 pm
- Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
- USDA Zone: 9b
- Contact:
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
And back to the general area at which mini-verdensis #1 resides to look for more strangers, and by gosh, we found some. We found a breathtaking apparent verdensis hybrid of some manner, another possible mini-verdensis example, and several blooming Agaves across an area of about 10 acres that point to the inescapable conclusion that this is not the A. chrysantha site we had previously believed. Plants here are decidedly chrysantha-like, but sport very different blooms, the likes of which we may not have seen before. So we seem to have discovered another potential new taxon growing across an area of at least 10 acres, that is also home to a smattering of A. verdensis, with which there is some small introgression. It may sound a little messy, but not nearly so incomprehensible and untidy as goings on at AFNM (Agua Fria National Monument) and other sites in the area. This is fun stuff!
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- Viegener
- Ready to Bolt
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:34 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, Sunset z23
- USDA Zone: 10b
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
Fascinating. Hope at least one of these gets named A. parkerii
- Gee.S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9596
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:42 pm
- Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
- USDA Zone: 9b
- Contact:
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
And one final look around the area to try to better our understanding of the range of the unusual chrysantha-like Agaves in the area. They're nearly done blooming now, so any serious research here is done until next season. Today we tried our very best to remain in the region, but distance ourselves from known domesticates to what extent we were able. One method is to attain elevation, beyond the comfort zone of known domesticates, another is to study blooms a few miles away from same said known domesticates, and we did both. In each instance, blooms became more homogeneous, but still displayed unusual features such as pale color and tepal callouses.
We also found a patch of what may pan out as the same unusual Agaves that got our attention at Blackjack, 100 miles away, and we were fortunate enough to find a plant in bloom today, which appears chrysantha-like, but we have yet to scrutinize beyond a cursory glance.
We also found a patch of what may pan out as the same unusual Agaves that got our attention at Blackjack, 100 miles away, and we were fortunate enough to find a plant in bloom today, which appears chrysantha-like, but we have yet to scrutinize beyond a cursory glance.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- toditd
- Ready to Bolt
- Posts: 683
- Joined: Sun May 29, 2016 1:13 pm
- Location: Phoenix Metro
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
Pardon my ignorance, but what are tepal callouses? Are these visible in any of the bloom photos you've posted here?
- Gee.S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9596
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:42 pm
- Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
- USDA Zone: 9b
- Contact:
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
Check the photo Mini_V_North 033b in post 81. See the brown tips on the very end of the tepals? These are tepal callouses, the discoloration results from drying, and this is a bloom characteristic most Agaves lack. Callouses have the effect of elongating (opposite of blunting) tepals, and allow some small increase in access to nectar within. A. chrysantha tepals are generally strictly erect, blunt, and impressively rigid. In contrast, A. palmeri and AZ domesticate Agaves have these callouses, which I consider a significant identifying characteristic. Read Gentry's bloom description of A. palmeri for his tepal callous reference.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- toditd
- Ready to Bolt
- Posts: 683
- Joined: Sun May 29, 2016 1:13 pm
- Location: Phoenix Metro
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
Interesting, thanks for the explanation and pointing to the image. I'll look up that Gentry reference.
- Gee.S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9596
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:42 pm
- Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
- USDA Zone: 9b
- Contact:
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
And a quick hike up to Ledge House Just trying to get our hiking legs under us for the upcoming season. Anybody like spiders?
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- Gee.S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9596
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:42 pm
- Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
- USDA Zone: 9b
- Contact:
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
Tried a new hiking spot today, east of Oak Creek, and there were quite a few strange Agaves up there. The only naturally occurring Agave in the area would be A. parryi, but we found plenty of other offerings, which defy identification. Some have a chrysantha-like waft about them, but this is pretty far out of range for chrysantha. Best guess is that A. verdensis and perhaps A. phillipsiana had been planted out and since perished, but not before adding genetic material to the naturally occurring A. parryi pop. Interesting place, interesting plants, but a taxonomic mess we will probably never sort out.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- toditd
- Ready to Bolt
- Posts: 683
- Joined: Sun May 29, 2016 1:13 pm
- Location: Phoenix Metro
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
A few of those certainly do "have a chrysantha-like waft about them". I see the bottom of an old stalk in photo 030.JPG. Was that inflorescence intact enough to give any clues?
2 gallons of water? That makes for an awfully heavy pack! I guess I'd have to leave the camera home. I hope you didn't forget that sleeping bag!
2 gallons of water? That makes for an awfully heavy pack! I guess I'd have to leave the camera home. I hope you didn't forget that sleeping bag!
- Gee.S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9596
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:42 pm
- Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
- USDA Zone: 9b
- Contact:
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
Never seen a sign like it, have you?
Oh there were all kinds of stalks about, we collected some seed. Tiny pods, tiny seed, so tiny blooms. And shockingly infertile, very little seed amongst lots of chaff. There is no way to tell one parry hybrid from another by examining stalks, or even blooms, for that matter. This is not really chrysantha territory, so more likely verdensis and phillipsiana or another unknown domesticate. Whatever it was is gone now, though its DNA remains in the hybrid pop. A few of these guys had a strong verdensis look about them, but others did not.
Oh there were all kinds of stalks about, we collected some seed. Tiny pods, tiny seed, so tiny blooms. And shockingly infertile, very little seed amongst lots of chaff. There is no way to tell one parry hybrid from another by examining stalks, or even blooms, for that matter. This is not really chrysantha territory, so more likely verdensis and phillipsiana or another unknown domesticate. Whatever it was is gone now, though its DNA remains in the hybrid pop. A few of these guys had a strong verdensis look about them, but others did not.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- Gee.S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9596
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:42 pm
- Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
- USDA Zone: 9b
- Contact:
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
A trip north in search of ruins, glyphs and domesticates. We had long since heard rumors of glyphs at Rarick Canyon, above and beyond those found on the main panel, and we found them -- lots of them! We also found a new-to-us hilltop pueblo, and ran into A. phillipsiana, A. verdensis and A. delamateri along the way. We also found what I believe are rare A. verdensis × A. delamateri hybrids.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- Gee.S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9596
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:42 pm
- Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
- USDA Zone: 9b
- Contact:
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
Continued from previous post...
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
-
- Ready to Bolt
- Posts: 5689
- Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:58 pm
- Location: Hayward ca/SF bay area
- USDA Zone: 10a
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
I could make out Deer,Antelope,Mountain lion,Turtle and Alien Spaceship with star map pointing to our origins.
Fantastic landscape..the iron rust soils and Agave parryi make a great place to live. Carved hills are spectacular.
Here in the bay area there are long "fences" of stacked stones all over the eastbay- seem them myself and wondered why or what they were for? Some follow rollings hills down to the base where some seasonal creek might flow...no reason for that. It was in the paper recently that even in 2017,they didn't know who built them,settler or Indians or why. They admit it was a lot of work put into building those stone walls with no real obvious reason,because they never find any foundations for a possible home near any of them. So,who does that for just open land?
Fantastic landscape..the iron rust soils and Agave parryi make a great place to live. Carved hills are spectacular.
Here in the bay area there are long "fences" of stacked stones all over the eastbay- seem them myself and wondered why or what they were for? Some follow rollings hills down to the base where some seasonal creek might flow...no reason for that. It was in the paper recently that even in 2017,they didn't know who built them,settler or Indians or why. They admit it was a lot of work put into building those stone walls with no real obvious reason,because they never find any foundations for a possible home near any of them. So,who does that for just open land?
Hayward Ca. 75-80f summers,60f winters.
- Gee.S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9596
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:42 pm
- Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
- USDA Zone: 9b
- Contact:
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
We've found rock walls out in the wilds more than once that lack the style/quality of ancient Native American handiwork. In our case, more times than not, it is ramshackle construction by cavalry during the Indian wars.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- Gee.S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9596
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:42 pm
- Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
- USDA Zone: 9b
- Contact:
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
Today we resolved one of our most enduring habitat mysteries. We finally found the Sinagua ruins associated with a large A. yavapaiensis field. And by large, I mean more than 1/2 of the world's habitat yavapaiensis population is found here. There are two ruins, both pueblos, and both rather large. The first has perhaps 50 rooms, and the other about 30.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
-
- Ready to Bolt
- Posts: 522
- Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:17 pm
- Location: Simpsonville, SC
Re: Habitat: Domesticates South of Sedona II
Outstanding tour of Agave,sinagua petroglyphs and natural areas!