Habitat: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
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Habitat: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
While searching for A. murpheyi, more times than not we seem to come up empty, but do occasionally encounter some pretty spectacular Hohokam Indian ruins. Today we visited two hilltop forts, where we found some 6'+ walls, lots of pottery shards, and a couple of interesting glyphs. These forts are estimated to be no more recent than 13th Century. There are other forts in the area as well, but most require hikes too strenuous to attempt in 100°F weather, so we'll place those on the back burner until autumn rolls in.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Hohokam Hill Forts
And the second site...
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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- Spination
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Re: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
Nice thread and great pictures! I had never heard of the Hohokam before, and I was inspired to learn about them thanks to this thread. I found this link from the Arizona Museum of Natural History fascinating and informative:
http://www.azmnh.org/arch/hohokam.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some eye-opening facts of which I'm quite shocked I never heard of in history classes during my education back in the 60's and 70's are for one, a rather complex agricultural societal structure that appeared in southern Arizona as far back as 2000BC! ? A culture that engineered a mind-boggling canal system for irrigation, using a gradient of 1-2' per mile - one prehistoric canal discovered that was 15' deep and 45' wide. Ball Courts, Temple Mounds, trade, village structure, craftsmanship (stone, copper, shells, bone, pottery, baskets, and ???) and an important connection with mesoamerican cultures (Toltec, Aztec, Maya) strongly evidence this as a major ancient civilization here in America. Interesting is that ceramics studied by researches can actually determine origin by the temper, and that such study identifies the villages of manufacture and gives evidence to trade, providing information on the "interaction between villages and helps to understand trade networks and to reconstruct social, political and economic ties." Although maize might have been their #1 crop, agave was an important part of their sustenance as well, and large ovens in the village central open area were used as well to bake agave plant hearts.
This gives me some additional insight as to the cultivation and horticulture of agave in SW america, and makes me wonder as to the similarity of several agave species as I noted for instance in the Aquarius Mountain habitat thread. I would think that DNA studies of the various current agave species and their genetic relations noting habitat locations could also provide clues as to the ancient american cultures, given that this plant was so important to them, and that in all likelihood, the plants may well have been brought with them from their origins in Mesoamerica (both the people and their plants). I had always assumed that US agave species evolved over millennias naturally, and now it appears far more likely that the plants were brought here as cultivated plants, and only later on with the mysterious disappearance of american ancient civilizations became feral, and then perhaps evolved into more distinctive separate species populations. In any case, very interesting to speculate on and I wonder if these plants are being scientifically studied more regarding genealogy considering their apparent ties and importance to ancient american civilization, at least in the SW?
Anyway, Thank You Very Much for this thread!
http://www.azmnh.org/arch/hohokam.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some eye-opening facts of which I'm quite shocked I never heard of in history classes during my education back in the 60's and 70's are for one, a rather complex agricultural societal structure that appeared in southern Arizona as far back as 2000BC! ? A culture that engineered a mind-boggling canal system for irrigation, using a gradient of 1-2' per mile - one prehistoric canal discovered that was 15' deep and 45' wide. Ball Courts, Temple Mounds, trade, village structure, craftsmanship (stone, copper, shells, bone, pottery, baskets, and ???) and an important connection with mesoamerican cultures (Toltec, Aztec, Maya) strongly evidence this as a major ancient civilization here in America. Interesting is that ceramics studied by researches can actually determine origin by the temper, and that such study identifies the villages of manufacture and gives evidence to trade, providing information on the "interaction between villages and helps to understand trade networks and to reconstruct social, political and economic ties." Although maize might have been their #1 crop, agave was an important part of their sustenance as well, and large ovens in the village central open area were used as well to bake agave plant hearts.
This gives me some additional insight as to the cultivation and horticulture of agave in SW america, and makes me wonder as to the similarity of several agave species as I noted for instance in the Aquarius Mountain habitat thread. I would think that DNA studies of the various current agave species and their genetic relations noting habitat locations could also provide clues as to the ancient american cultures, given that this plant was so important to them, and that in all likelihood, the plants may well have been brought with them from their origins in Mesoamerica (both the people and their plants). I had always assumed that US agave species evolved over millennias naturally, and now it appears far more likely that the plants were brought here as cultivated plants, and only later on with the mysterious disappearance of american ancient civilizations became feral, and then perhaps evolved into more distinctive separate species populations. In any case, very interesting to speculate on and I wonder if these plants are being scientifically studied more regarding genealogy considering their apparent ties and importance to ancient american civilization, at least in the SW?
Anyway, Thank You Very Much for this thread!
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Re: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
The most important aspect of Hohokam culture (from my warped perspective) is its association with A. murpheyi. We have spent a lot of time in the great outdoors recently chasing Agaves associated with Hohokam, Salado, and Sinagua cultures -- there are five named domesticate species to date (A. delamateri, A. murpheyi, A. phillipsiana, A. verdensis, A. yavapaiensis), and other unnamed presumed cultigens as well. You'll find many threads in the Agavaceae Talk section that address that very subject, including two each Domesticates south of Sedona and Domesticates north of Roosevelt Lake (parts 1 & 2). You may also enjoy the Ledge House thread. We have found impressive numbers of these rare Agaves and agree completely with those theories that hold them as domesticates. Another fine thread I would highly recommend for perusal is Finding the Hidden Garden. In fact, you may want to find that first. There are two excellent articles within.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
Thank You! Ron. I absolutely will be reading them all. What a fantastic resource this site is regarding the lesser considered aspects of agave enthusiasm/collecting/admiration... history and the intertwined ancient civilizations' use and dependence of this important plant.
As a side note, I have had numerous visitors to my modest agave collection, and far and away the most common comment/question that starts out the tour of my plants is "Agave? What are those?" to which my standard quick reply is - "What are Agave? Only possibly one of the single most important plants depended on by indigenous cultures of the Americas for a variety of the plant's unique characteristics dating back 10,000 years!!!!!". That usually stimulates the desired jaw-drop effect and immediate interest that I never get tired of seeing.
Many have heard of agave use as beverage (tequila, etc.), but not many are much aware of the plant's importance for fiber (textiles), food, even terminal spines as needles and tips for tools and weapons. I know even in more remote (even current) areas of Mexico for instance that the plants are used as very effective hedge-rows, and even massive leaves have been used for emergency livestock feed. Depictions of agave in Aztec glyphs certainly are evidence of such ancient dependence and import.
Anyway, I'm really looking forward to plowing through all the available material here! Thank you again.
As a side note, I have had numerous visitors to my modest agave collection, and far and away the most common comment/question that starts out the tour of my plants is "Agave? What are those?" to which my standard quick reply is - "What are Agave? Only possibly one of the single most important plants depended on by indigenous cultures of the Americas for a variety of the plant's unique characteristics dating back 10,000 years!!!!!". That usually stimulates the desired jaw-drop effect and immediate interest that I never get tired of seeing.
Many have heard of agave use as beverage (tequila, etc.), but not many are much aware of the plant's importance for fiber (textiles), food, even terminal spines as needles and tips for tools and weapons. I know even in more remote (even current) areas of Mexico for instance that the plants are used as very effective hedge-rows, and even massive leaves have been used for emergency livestock feed. Depictions of agave in Aztec glyphs certainly are evidence of such ancient dependence and import.
Anyway, I'm really looking forward to plowing through all the available material here! Thank you again.
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Re: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
We returned to this area today, still searching for A. murpheyi. Had we been successful, we might have moved this thread to the Agavaceae section. Oh well.
Still, we were quite pleased to find more Hohokam Indian ruins, this time in the form of petroglyphs, which were nearly absent from the pueblos we had visited previously. One other item of note, this area is an absolute haven for Cylindropuntia. We saw five species from a single spot during our trek at one point. These include C. acanthocarpa, C. arbuscula, C. bigelovii, C. fulgida, and C. leptocaulis. We also came upon a spectacular and very old crested Echinocereus engelmannii.
Still, we were quite pleased to find more Hohokam Indian ruins, this time in the form of petroglyphs, which were nearly absent from the pueblos we had visited previously. One other item of note, this area is an absolute haven for Cylindropuntia. We saw five species from a single spot during our trek at one point. These include C. acanthocarpa, C. arbuscula, C. bigelovii, C. fulgida, and C. leptocaulis. We also came upon a spectacular and very old crested Echinocereus engelmannii.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
Great thread and great photos. I'll echo what Spination said up above: "What a fantastic resource this site is regarding the lesser considered aspects of agave enthusiasm/collecting/admiration... history and the intertwined ancient civilizations' use and dependence of this important plant."
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Re: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
Back to this area one final time in a search for A. murpheyi -- no joy. If that elusive domesticate Agave is taking up residence here, it is doing a fabulous job of remaining incognito, as we left no stone unturned at a time when this species should be blooming and at its most visible.
OTOH, we did manage to find the single most impressive and well-preserved Hohokam hill fort we have ever been privileged to lay eyes upon. Historians and anthropologists actually know very little about these ancient cultures, and one particularly enduring discussion/argument concerns "hill forts" (as opposed to pueblos or residences). For my part, I have always been skeptical of the hill fort argument, which purports that some of these structures seem designed as defensive positions -- specifically, to defend against human incursion. Today's find is IMHO, the single most compelling argument in favor of hill fort theory, which we have found. This particular ruin is strategically placed atop a high point in the region, maintains sight-to-sight contact with three other hill-forts (two are actually fairly large, but particularly well fortified pueblos), is extremely well fortified, and simply too small to house but a handful of individuals. One question remains of course, who were they holding these defensive positions against? We have no clue.
We will also examine one photo from a previous visit, taken very near the fort we managed to hike up to today. This is a shot of a nicely preserved petroglyph panel, and includes what may be the most extraordinary glyph we have chanced upon to date.
OTOH, we did manage to find the single most impressive and well-preserved Hohokam hill fort we have ever been privileged to lay eyes upon. Historians and anthropologists actually know very little about these ancient cultures, and one particularly enduring discussion/argument concerns "hill forts" (as opposed to pueblos or residences). For my part, I have always been skeptical of the hill fort argument, which purports that some of these structures seem designed as defensive positions -- specifically, to defend against human incursion. Today's find is IMHO, the single most compelling argument in favor of hill fort theory, which we have found. This particular ruin is strategically placed atop a high point in the region, maintains sight-to-sight contact with three other hill-forts (two are actually fairly large, but particularly well fortified pueblos), is extremely well fortified, and simply too small to house but a handful of individuals. One question remains of course, who were they holding these defensive positions against? We have no clue.
We will also examine one photo from a previous visit, taken very near the fort we managed to hike up to today. This is a shot of a nicely preserved petroglyph panel, and includes what may be the most extraordinary glyph we have chanced upon to date.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
This is the petroglyph panel referenced in the prior post. It appears to depict a man on a horse. This is of particular interest since these forts were abandoned at least 300 years before horses were introduced in North America. There are other possible explanations for the glyph, we will leave it to our readers to draw some semblance of reason from this peculiar incongruity.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
Fascinating regarding the Hill Forts. Interesting too that you note these forts are on high points within lines of sight of other forts. I'm just thinking out loud, but it seems to me that they could be outposts of sorts for purposes of communication, like a relay perhaps as some kind of warning system for outsider incursions into their territory. It seems feasible then that some sort of visual communication method could have been utilized between the forts relaying critical information much faster than any other possible method available at the time. An early warning system utilizing permanently manned outposts would have obvious value to early civilizations.
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Re: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
Certainly possible.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
did you ever find any arrow heads? As a kid growing up in New mexico, we spent nearly all of our free time wandering the mesas for arrowheads and all of us developed a rather extensive collection… ruins were all over the place… we never went beyond just wandering around, though… those others that really had huge collections would pilfer sites and dig them up illegally. Tempting sometimes but the three of us in our little group never did it knowing, mostly, that if we got caught, that was going to be big trouble.
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Re: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
No we haven't. Can't say I've been looking for them, though. One site we found in particular, was littered with pottery shards (even painted shards), obsidian, and another obsidian-like material, and this ruin was difficult to get to and really off the grid. I looked and couldn't find it referenced anywhere, so that might be a likely spot. In the end however, it is illegal to remove these types of artifacts from archeological sites in AZ. Do you still have your collection?
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
Yes… pretty sure it's the same legal situation in New Mexico, but none of the ruins were on the 'grid' and I lived in a town way away from the main stream archeological traffic. Finding a point sitting all by itself in the dirt on a mesa is a crime not to be picked up… so we collected a number of them. We could have had truckloads of pottery shards but those didn't interest us.
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Re: Habitat: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
Oh, life is funny sometimes. We had entered this general area five times prior looking for A. murpheyi amongst Hohokam Indian ruins, and came up empty each and every time. OTOH, we were thrilled to find the ruins we did both earlier in this thread and in our Habitat: Primitive Road thread. Toss in the area we visited today, and the three form a neat little two mile equilateral triangle in the heart of Hohokam central. The irony here is that we did manage to find an A. murpheyi patch today, but we really weren't looking for one. Instead we were chasing an odd out-of-range A. deserti v. simplex population similar to that which we found and documented here: Habitat: McDowell Madness. And while we did find the rumored site we were looking for, we were profoundly saddened to bear witness to a likely regional extinction. One stalk and one husk was all that remained of this little group; we looked long and hard and found no living plants. There may be some scattered seed that might germinate at some point, but that seems rather unlikely. In any case, we did manage to find more Hohokam ruins, and lots of other fun stuff, including tens of thousands of Dudleya absolutely dominating the region in a manner we had not previously encountered.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Habitat: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
Continued from previous post...
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Habitat: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
Single orange flower is Calochortus kennedyi per fireflyforest.com.
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Re: Habitat: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
Good man, thanks! ID added.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- Peterthecactusguy
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Re: Habitat: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
Ron, the yellow flowered might be a parasite is Orobanche fasiculatus var lutea according to plants of AZ
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Re: Habitat: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
Yeah, had sorted that out just a little bit ago.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Habitat: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
Thank you for the link to Paul Nabhon's article, Finding the Hidden Garden. It is appreciated, perhaps, more than you can imagine. A real gem.
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Re: Habitat: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
Another incursion into the heart of Hohokam Indian country in search of ruins and A. murpheyi yielded a fair-sized hilltop pueblo and plenty of glyphs, as well as an encounter with one of our all time favorite herps. A. murpheyi as usual, seems in short supply.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Habitat: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
Continued from previous post...
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- Gee.S
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Re: Habitat: Hohokam Indian Hill Forts
Another rare A. murpheyi find in the general vicinity of the Hohokam hill forts. This site is significant on two fronts. First and foremost, it is by far, the largest, healthiest A. murpheyi site found to date, boasting 60 plants plus pups. Also, the site is located about halfway up a summit that plays host to another Hohokam ruin.
An additional point of interest involves the stalks/blooms/bulbils. As you'll see in ensuing photos, several of the stalks seem infested with what presents as arboreal cauliflower. No idea what this substance is, but a couple of these odd gall-like features seem to have blooms of their own. Never seen anything like it.
An additional point of interest involves the stalks/blooms/bulbils. As you'll see in ensuing photos, several of the stalks seem infested with what presents as arboreal cauliflower. No idea what this substance is, but a couple of these odd gall-like features seem to have blooms of their own. Never seen anything like it.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"