This is old pictures, from 2013. Most agaves and yuccas germinates within a 1 week.GeeS wrote: Nice! how many days since you planted?
Agaves from seed
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Re: Agaves from seed
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Re: Agaves from seed
I agree with the above statement from Palmofan regarding a week to germinate. I will also add that after a week the chances of germination go down by leaps and bounds. Not always but most of the time.
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Re: Agaves from seed
I wonder if we fuss over seed sowing too much?
Normally I buy special compost, mix it 50/50 with vermiculite, sieve out a nice fine soft top surface for the seeds to be comfortable in etc.
This autumn I had some Pelargonium seeds to sow but only enough seed for 1 pot. I couldn't be bothered to go through the usual rigmarole for 1 pot so just used my basic cactus compost with big pieces of grit etc and just pressed seeds in where I could. Did the boiling water treatment and sealed them in the plastic bag and every one came up, no bother at all.
In habitat they don't get any special treatment and still germinate.
Normally I buy special compost, mix it 50/50 with vermiculite, sieve out a nice fine soft top surface for the seeds to be comfortable in etc.
This autumn I had some Pelargonium seeds to sow but only enough seed for 1 pot. I couldn't be bothered to go through the usual rigmarole for 1 pot so just used my basic cactus compost with big pieces of grit etc and just pressed seeds in where I could. Did the boiling water treatment and sealed them in the plastic bag and every one came up, no bother at all.
In habitat they don't get any special treatment and still germinate.
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Re: Agaves from seed
mickthecactus wrote:I wonder if we fuss over seed sowing too much? . . . In habitat they don't get any special treatment and still germinate.
True, but my impression (which could be wrong) is that the Agave germination rate in the wild is low depending on environmental conditions, with large populations sustaining species and not high germination rates. And even if the germination rates are not low in a given year the selective pressures are myriad and intense.
Perhaps too much fuss, but if the goal is to push the germination rate to an unnaturally high level to maximize yield from effort, some fussing to generate unnatural but conducive conditions is required (boiling and bagging are good examples of this).
A related question is whether the absence of selective pressures in domesticated seed grown Agaves is producing weaker and weaker plants that may not stand up as well to environmental and pathogenic forces. From what I have read of Keith's approach to growing from seed, it seems he is approximating selective pressures by growing them hard from the get go -- perhaps a good approach.
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Re: Agaves from seed
And so it begins....
My concern is not germination but weaning from incubator to real world. It seems very easy to kill seedlings with rot or dessication, and I believe that is what I must develop a feel for by trial and error, hopefully not too much error. In any case, I am braced for woefully low germination rates, since four of my seven are hybrids and a fifth self-fertilized. I devoted five cells to each type, with four seeds per cell. My system is sealed tight as a drum, and I had to remove moisture via condensation a couple of mornings. I may not have to water but once every week or two as long as the lid remains.
My concern is not germination but weaning from incubator to real world. It seems very easy to kill seedlings with rot or dessication, and I believe that is what I must develop a feel for by trial and error, hopefully not too much error. In any case, I am braced for woefully low germination rates, since four of my seven are hybrids and a fifth self-fertilized. I devoted five cells to each type, with four seeds per cell. My system is sealed tight as a drum, and I had to remove moisture via condensation a couple of mornings. I may not have to water but once every week or two as long as the lid remains.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Agaves from seed
After you grow a few from seed, you will find that the germination process is absolutely the hardest and most critical part. Once the seedlings break the surface and begin to spit out the tip of the first leaf from the slit in the stem you will find they are not fragile at all except for the fact they are small and delicate. After a number of them break the surface I would take the top off and let fresh air in. The condensation on the lid is normal and can be frustrating to deal with. It was once said that removing the top frequently would allow the introduction of spores and mold into the medium but I have not found that to be a big deal.
I wouldn't coddle them, just keep 'em moist and leave them alone. You would be surprised how long you can leave them in the cells crowded together.
Needless to say, keep us posted.
I wouldn't coddle them, just keep 'em moist and leave them alone. You would be surprised how long you can leave them in the cells crowded together.
Needless to say, keep us posted.
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Re: Agaves from seed
Regarding the concerns in the second to last post, and the obviously successful advice subsequently offered, I would like to make mention of something that I found researching the web prior to my own seed growing endeavors. It seemed to make sense to me as far as uses I'm aware of regarding the product hydrogen peroxide, and which I also made use of growing some aloes from seed this year without ill effect. On a garden forum, the forum's author suggested to an inquirer the use of 1 tbsp of commonly available 3% hydrogen peroxide solution added to a 16 oz spray bottle, for the purpose of preventing rot and fungus. After my seedlings had germinated, I removed the container's lid and kept them moist using the amended water solution, and never had any issue with fungus or the like. On the one hand, it sure didn't hurt the plants to my awareness. On the other hand, I can see where it sure could have been beneficial. I'm sold on the idea, for what it's worth.
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Re: Agaves from seed
Well said, Agave Killer. When we participate in various endeavors, and with growing from seed in particular, we measure success by maximizing results (higher germination rates). On the other hand, as you also mention, is the reduction of natural selection pressures that normally result in the survival of the fittest. Luckily, our plants grown for domesticated enjoyment don't have to make it out there on their own in the wild.
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Re: Agaves from seed
It's coming. I now have deserti simplex and toumeyana seedlings coming up en masse. These are the only "normal" seed types I planted, and figured to be the most productive. Other than that, only one little verdensis seedling has just now broken the surface. Hopefully, we'll have more coming up in the next day or two. I had been concerned that my media was a bit coarse and I may have buried the seed too deep, but if that was no impediment to the tiny parviflora seed, it should be fine for the rest. Fingers crossed that some of my more exotic seed germinates, such as Nova, Turtle Teeth and the chrysantha-murpheyi hybrids.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Agaves from seed
This has been quite an education already. Eight days later, the results are in:
A. deserti v. simplex: 18/20
A. parviflora: 19/20
A. sobria 'Turtle Teeth': 0/20
A. chrysantha × A. murpheyi: 0/20
A. 'Celsii Nova': 0/20
A. verdensis: 1/20
A. yavapaiensis: 0/20
The A. sobria is a TC plant that self-fertilized on my property
A. chrysantha × A. murpheyi (presumed) is an in-situ hybrid of (presumed) domesticate origin
A. 'Celsii Nova' is a TC of a natural hybrid, which I cross fertilized on my property
A. verdensis and A. yavapaiensis are in situ hybrids of domesticate origin
I am trying again with A. sobria, A. chrysantha × A. murpheyi, A. 'Celsii Nova', and A. yavapaiensis with 9 seeds per cell, 5 cells each. Hopefully, some small percentage will germinate this time.
A. deserti v. simplex: 18/20
A. parviflora: 19/20
A. sobria 'Turtle Teeth': 0/20
A. chrysantha × A. murpheyi: 0/20
A. 'Celsii Nova': 0/20
A. verdensis: 1/20
A. yavapaiensis: 0/20
The A. sobria is a TC plant that self-fertilized on my property
A. chrysantha × A. murpheyi (presumed) is an in-situ hybrid of (presumed) domesticate origin
A. 'Celsii Nova' is a TC of a natural hybrid, which I cross fertilized on my property
A. verdensis and A. yavapaiensis are in situ hybrids of domesticate origin
I am trying again with A. sobria, A. chrysantha × A. murpheyi, A. 'Celsii Nova', and A. yavapaiensis with 9 seeds per cell, 5 cells each. Hopefully, some small percentage will germinate this time.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Agaves from seed
8 days is nothing, keep running it out and you will get some to pop in your zero cells. Letting them dry out and then rehydrating cells sometimes can sometimes initiate germination in delayed seeds -- don't understand it, but have noticed this on more than one occasion.
Could be COMPLETE coincidence, but still, more time does no harm and can yield more germination.
Could be COMPLETE coincidence, but still, more time does no harm and can yield more germination.
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Re: Agaves from seed
I have heard from reliable sources that hybrid Agave seed can be maddeningly infertile. Since I got excellent results from the only two "normal" seed types I tried, I assume that is the issue. Still, the cells are still there, I added new seed to new cells, I'll try the drying out thing. Sounds like a plan!
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Agaves from seed
I first heard about it from boo on XW and found it to be true indoors under lights with a nearly identical set up to yours, but can't speak to efficacy with natural hybrids, though germ rates from nickelsiae seed collected by Paul Spracklin on the hill outside Saltillo where sharkskin (x nigra) occurs have been good and some of those might be hybrids of some degree.
However, your rates seem to confirm your expectations.
However, your rates seem to confirm your expectations.
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Re: Agaves from seed
I would guess hybrid fertility might be surmised to some degree by noting the size and scope of in situ populations, and that some are much more fertile than others. For example, A. verdensis, A. yavapaiensis, and A. murpheyi are all domesticate hybrids that produce seed, albeit in small quantities. Nowhere do these plants spread across the countryside as naturally occurring species do. In fact in all the sites we have found, we have only twice found plants that probably originated from seed, and these were not far from more established groups. The A. chrysantha × A. murpheyi hybrids we found were confined to an area of about 10 sq. yards. OTOH, we have found broad swaths of hybrid A. chrysantha × A. parryi populations, suggesting a much higher fertility rate, perhaps approaching that of either parent species. In that vein, I wonder how robust in situ Sharkskin populations are.
Then we have seed from TC plants, and I wonder if that might impact germination rate in some manner beyond my comprehension.
Then we have seed from TC plants, and I wonder if that might impact germination rate in some manner beyond my comprehension.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Agaves from seed
I have learned that after about 10 days the seeds will rot. I have got no better results from the moist paper towel in a baggie method either. There are some seed batches that just won't germinate. I have no patience after 2 weeks and throw them out.
Don't California my Arizona!
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Re: Agaves from seed
Right you are, they are still coming. We're now ten days in, and parviflora #20, verdensis #2, and 'Celsii Nova' #1 popped up today. Don't care much about the last parviflora seed, but the other two are definitely good news. In particular, I hope a few more Nova seedlings come up. We're now at:AGAVE_KILLER wrote:8 days is nothing, keep running it out and you will get some to pop in your zero cells. Letting them dry out and then rehydrating cells sometimes can sometimes initiate germination in delayed seeds -- don't understand it, but have noticed this on more than one occasion.
Could be COMPLETE coincidence, but still, more time does no harm and can yield more germination.
A. deserti v. simplex: 18/20
A. parviflora: 20/20
A. sobria 'Turtle Teeth': 0/20
A. chrysantha × A. murpheyi: 0/20
A. 'Celsii Nova': 1/20
A. verdensis: 2/20
A. yavapaiensis: 0/20
I wonder if allowing soil to cool briefly might also stimulate some to pop. I would think many have tried that tack before.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- Gee.S
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Re: Agaves from seed
The hits keep coming. Today an A. chrysantha × A. murpheyi seedling showed, and an A. sobria 'Turtle Teeth' came up from the new batch. Hopefully, more to follow.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Agaves from seed
The only seedlings still coming up are the Nova, so while a couple more might yet emerge, the final tally seems more or less in.
A. parviflora: 20/20
A. deserti v. simplex: 18/20
A. 'Celsii Nova': 14/60
A. verdensis: 3/20
A. yavapaiensis: 3/60
A. chrysantha × murpheyi: 3/60
A. sobria 'Turtle Teeth': 1/60
Some of the seedlings are now starting to form leaves at the base. Oh, and a couple dicots are coming up in the same cell as my lone 'Turtle Teeth' seedling. Too bad, the seed I am most interested in collecting and growing is from in situ hybrids and other assorted freaks. That is looking like a tough row to hoe.
A. parviflora: 20/20
A. deserti v. simplex: 18/20
A. 'Celsii Nova': 14/60
A. verdensis: 3/20
A. yavapaiensis: 3/60
A. chrysantha × murpheyi: 3/60
A. sobria 'Turtle Teeth': 1/60
Some of the seedlings are now starting to form leaves at the base. Oh, and a couple dicots are coming up in the same cell as my lone 'Turtle Teeth' seedling. Too bad, the seed I am most interested in collecting and growing is from in situ hybrids and other assorted freaks. That is looking like a tough row to hoe.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- Gee.S
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Re: Agaves from seed
Ten more seeds have sprouted since the prior post, most are Nova. There seems to be something wrong with some of the Nova seedlings. I've had a couple show leaves almost as soon as they emerge, which might suggest too deep a planting. But that isn't the problem. A few others get tall and thin and never form leaves. I've had three die so far -- just like that. Possibly an hybrid frailty?
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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- Gee.S
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Re: Agaves from seed
Maybe, but other seedlings are doing great, and they're getting the same light. BTW, the verdensis first leaves have prominent marginals -- crack me up!
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- Gee.S
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Re: Agaves from seed
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
- AGAVE_KILLER
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Re: Agaves from seed
Another trick you might try that I found effective was monkeying with the humidity. After removing the hood for a couple weeks I popped it back on and several more cells germinated -- this was around the 8 week mark on my test, I think.
Again, could be COMPLETE coincidence, but does no harm and may get you some germination in your zero cells.
Looking good.
Again, could be COMPLETE coincidence, but does no harm and may get you some germination in your zero cells.
Looking good.
- Gee.S
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Re: Agaves from seed
Thanks, can't hurt to give that a shot. My first A. yavapaiensis seedling has just now emerged from the first batch of 20 seeds planted 5 weeks ago! Unreal. I've had two others germinate from the second batch of 40 seeds.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"