Agave tecta

Use this forum to discuss matters relating to Agave, Beschorneria, Furcraea, Hesperaloe, Hesperoyucca, Manfreda, Polianthes, Yucca and related species. This is where one posts unknown plant photos for ID help.
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Agave tecta

#1

Post by Gee.S »

Desert Dweller brought this guy by one afternoon around the first week of March and it was not doing well, having been potted up during winter and still rootless many weeks later. We figured its chances were no better than 50/50 at that point but repotted and waited for growth as temps warmed up. It sat silent for several weeks, but eventually came roaring back to life. Three months later it has added three new leaves, each long, narrow, thick and blue, quite unlike its prior leaves. I know it still isn't much to look at, but it will be, and at this rate it won't be long.
Agave tecta
Agave tecta
tecta 003.JPG (71.66 KiB) Viewed 2999 times
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Agave tecta

#2

Post by Spination »

Very cool.
For comparison purposes, here's mine.
Out of the box after shipping from the UK Jan 2015
2015 01 26 A tecta d X750.jpg
2015 01 26 A tecta d X750.jpg (127.46 KiB) Viewed 2993 times
Today
2016 06 11 A tecta x750.jpg
2016 06 11 A tecta x750.jpg (168.4 KiB) Viewed 2993 times
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Re: Agave tecta

#3

Post by Gee.S »

Looks good! What's the plan when it gets bigger than your house? :shock:
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Agave tecta

#4

Post by DesertDweller »

Looking good! :U

Normally wouldn't have separated it, but that one was creeping out a drainage hole in the original pot, so not much else to be done while re-potting the mother. So glad it survived and is now thriving. Its four siblings will remain attached to momma for another season or so until they size up a bit, as they are all considerably smaller than this guy. Best ones always seem to creep out in the worst places. ;)
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Re: Agave tecta

#5

Post by Jkwinston »

My only plant, a gift from Keith, is now doing well. Last night, it fell off its perch no doubt assisted by the neighbour's cat/ the foxes have disappeared. But there was only slight damage, just one leaf. I have to be weary of animals who love rummaging around. Jkw
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IMG_0109X.jpg
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Re: Agave tecta

#6

Post by Spination »

Nice to see great uniformity and resemblance between all 3 examples. I was withholding confidence that mine was indeed as was indicated, now I'm feeling fairly certain.

Ron - build a new house of course! lol Actually, I was planning to construct some sort of outdoor shelter, such as a pergola which would then serve as a framework for temporary plastic covering for frost/freeze conditions during winter, given that I presume this species not particularly cold-hardy, hailing from Guatemala. I still have years to go before deciding on an exact location hereabouts.

As I understand, the species was transported to Guatemala for pulque production purposes, "post-conquest times" (so - 16th Century?), and now finds usage only as hedge rows. Some note accompanying U. of Illinois herbarium specimen information online describe it as "ferox-atrovirens type".

Anyway, it makes a nice addition to the huge ones growing on our property, a hybrid of salmiana and perhaps mapisaga. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2882&hilit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Between that, a couple of A. mapisaga var Lisa from HBG, an A. atrovirens var Mirabillis from Keith, a couple of A. franzosinii, and a selection of salmiana from a couple of different sources, there will be a nice representation of massive species growing here, given several more years to attain some size for the more recent additions. Most have been repotted recently, but with Keith's atrovirens recently upgraded to a 10 gallon tub, it's apparent some are faster growing than others. Even 'Lisa' seems to be slower growing, the faster growing of 2 acquired 3 years ago now about filling only a 3 or so gallon pot, but starting to pup.

:M D))
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Re: Agave tecta

#7

Post by Paul S »

Spination wrote: As I understand, the species was transported to Guatemala for pulque production purposes, "post-conquest times" (so - 16th Century?), and now finds usage only as hedge rows.
Be interested in reading the source for that, if you can find it. I always understood that is was 'suspected' to be the case, and pre-conquest. Immediately post conquest, pulque production was frowned upon by the Spanish 'overlords' and pretty much banned. Which of course didn't stop it, but drove it underground. Still a thriving cottage industry in some parts of Mexico. And tastes disgusting.

I have a plant from material collected decades ago in Guatemala where it is to be found at very high altitude on some of the bigger volcanos there. The chap who collected it reckoned the mother plant, which had flowered, was 30ft across and the stalk as thick as a telegraph pole. He is not usually given to hyperbole, so I believe him. So far - as just a smallish plant - mine has made one offset which I gave to a friend who looks after the gardens at Monserrate in Sintra, in Portugal. I think it will sit nicely in the Mexican garden there, where there is space to enjoy it mature.
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Re: Agave tecta

#8

Post by Spination »

Hi Paul. That quoted brief comment comes straight out of Gentry, page 614. I had previously Googled "conquest Guatemala" and I conclude the reference pertains to the Spanish - Maya protracted conflict. While the Kaqchikel Maya (midwestern highlands) surrendered in 1530, the Itza Maya were not defeated until 1697, so a very long period of hostility presuming divided rule within Guatemala circa 150 years. Hard for me therefor to even pin down exactly when and what is meant by post conquest considering the entire defeat of all the Maya kingdoms took nearly 2 centuries.

My plant was purchased on Ebay UK, from a person associated with the former North South Succulents of Alfreston Derbyshire which entire collection of "hundreds of Agaves almost every species" was relocated to a 2 acre site and now a botanical garden in Portugal. My tecta comes from their collection, various specimens which are shipped to the associate for periodic Ebay sales. I also have a couple of alternate 'Lisa' from this same source, which I'm looking forward to comparing to the HBG specimens as they get bigger, and an A. oroensis Marginata. Interestingly, I had searched vigorously for a tecta, and the only source I eventually saw was the Ebay UK listing, and was very happy to be the only bidder acquiring the plant at the minimum bid - good timing on my part I guess.
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Re: Agave tecta

#9

Post by Paul S »

That'll teach me to read 'the bible' properly. :)

Having said that, and I hate to even think about disagreeing with Mr Gentry, but his theory doesn't make sense to me. If, as he says, it is isolated from its kin by hundreds of miles, not found in the wild nearby and thus must have been transported to its current locations then presumably it must have come from somewhere else. But it doesn't come from anywhere else.

North South Succulents. I didn't know they had set up in Portugal. Interesting.
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Re: Agave tecta

#10

Post by Gee.S »

It seems to me that all giant Agaves must be fast growers, so those that are not apparently don't like their digs. My initial cursory observation of A. tecta is that it likes it hot hot hot.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Agave tecta

#11

Post by Spination »

My only comment regarding tecta is that supposedly had been a hybrid originating in Mexico, transported to Guatemala. However, a 1/2 millennium can change a lot of things. It's not unreasonable to conclude that the original stock in Mexico just doesn't exist anymore. Being such a massive plant, perhaps it was deemed a space hog and not particularly as preferable as others for production of pulque in Mexico. For reasons of climate, space considerations, etc, it may just have been deemed not as desirable as other choices for pulque production. Maybe an experiment gone wild, so to speak, and discarded... but perhaps prized by certain Guatemalan Maya cultures for it's size/uniqueness. If I tried to imagine the values and thinking of a culture that embraced a divinity known as Mayahuel, I'd certainly prize the biggest, most massive Agave in existence created during those times and cultivate that plant as something very special, perhaps even sacred. We do know the ancient peoples of the area from present day southwestern U.S., through Mexico and including the Maya of Guatemala prized and cultivated Agave, hybridized them, and traded them amongst each other, and that Agave usage to present day has steadfastly declined, in many areas leaving only remnant populations of their efforts. I only learned from this here website that peoples such as the Hohokam and others left behind mysterious terrace like ruins that were only recently realized to be Agave plantations. Much history regarding these plants lost due to the apparent efforts to erase previous precolumbian culture by the peoples who invaded and colonized, and the apparent lack of appreciation evidenced by the lack of study and recording of what was, like they couldn't stamp it out fast enough. Surely, a load of speculations on my part, but without records and hundreds of years gone by, speculation is about all that is left available.

Regarding Jon and Sue of NS, the info I got was from their friend when I purchased my plant early 2015, so the move was prior to that, a decision made apparently after a particularly cold, nasty and devastating for the plants winter a couple of years prior. Apparently, they decided Portugal climate best suited their ambitions, and moved there.
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Re: Agave tecta

#12

Post by Spination »

I think you're right Ron, but it also seems that I've observed a period more early on, when they start out more slowly before deciding to really take off. The growth curve doesn't seem to be a straight line, but modest to begin with, accelerating once a certain size is achieved. In this manner, I think my 'Lisa' has grown more in the last year than the previous 2 years combined.
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Agave tecta - some notes from the field

#13

Post by Stone Jaguar »

I’m happy to see so much interest in this species here, but have noted some minor misconceptions about its origins and the climate prevailing at sites where it still occurs. Hopefully, I can add some information about this species based on my own experiences with it in the field and garden.

Throughout the late 1980s and through much of the 1990s, I collected and cultivated Guatemalan agaves and ended up with almost all of the described species and forms in my personal collection in Guatemala City. I spent quite a bit of time examining various populations of Agave tecta at upper elevations (2,000-2,400 m) in the Departments of Quezaltenango, El Quiche and San Marcos, all located in western Guatemala. While I am reluctant to opine as to the origins of this taxon, I will note that, since Trelease’s original description, several noteworthy botanists (including two agave specialists) have looked at the A. tecta populations occurring in and near the city of Quezaltenango and speculated as to its origins and relationship with other members of the subgenus but have opted to not sink the name. Beyond Standley & Steyermark (1952) and Howard Gentry (1982), more recently Abisai Garcia-Mendoza noted in his treatment of the Agavaceae in “La Biodiversidad de Guatemala” (2006) that A. tecta may represent a selected variety of A. salmiana, yet in his closing paragraph suggested that only molecular biology work on this plant would resolve its taxonomic status.

For plantsmen unfamiliar with the region where A. tecta is most accessible and visible, i.e. the environs of the city of Quezaltenango in the Guatemalan Altos, there is a surprising diversity of native agaves and related plants within 15 km airline of the city. They are conspicuous elements of the local flora that includes five Agave spp., one Beschorneria sp., four Furcraea spp., one Manfreda sp., and one Yucca sp. I have not included here two introduced agaves that are widely planted throughout the region as ornamentals and boundary markers. Several of the plants on this list are regional and political endemics. There are other noteworthy floral endemics in this area that also have their close relatives scattered across the highlands of Chiapas and Oaxaca.

Quezaltenango and the surrounding highlands see sub-freezing temperatures with regularity throughout the early mornings of the northern hemisphere winter. The region is also infamous for the ferocity of the hailstorms that fall almost every year there, often causing mortality in exposed livestock and leaving large cultivated areas under several centimeters of ice for hours. The dry season extends from late in the year through early May and may see months on end with no measureable precipitation during February through April. Thus, climate definitely “not mild” for parts of the year.

As to A. tecta having originated elsewhere, I suggest that those interested go to the original source material that was written while the plant was far more common and widespread than it is today. These authors suggest that it is, indeed, a native plant (highlighted emphasis in texts mine).

From Trelease, “The Agaveae of Guatemala” (1915):

“n. sp. ...Known to me only as planted in hedge-rows, sparingly in the vicinity of Mixco, between Antigua and the capital-and in gardens in the latter, but abundantly in and around Quezaltenango, north of which it is said to occur wild in the mountains…records that excellent pulque was produced at Almolonga or Ciudad Vieja and at San Gaspar two centuries ago, but there remains no evidence of it at that I have been able to discover unless it be in the scattered hedge-rows of Agave tecta.”

Note: Mixco (Depto. Guatemala ~1,700 m), Antigua (Depto. Sacatepequez ~1,500 m), Quezaltenango (Depto. Quezaltenango ~2,350 m), Almolonga (Depto. Quezaltenango ~2,250 m), Ciudad Vieja (Depto. Sacatepequez ~1,500 m), San Gaspar (Depto. Huehuetenango ~1,500 m). Other known localities; Santa Cruz del Quiche (Depto. El Quiche ~ 2,000 m), San Marcos (Depto. San Marcos~2,400 m).

From Standley and Steyermark, “Flora of Guatemala – Part II” (1952)

“This is one of the few easily recognizable Agave species of Guate-
mala, distinguished by its massive leaves of trough-like form. It
is perhaps the most conspicuous plant of the plains about Quezal-
tenango, where there are many miles of hedges composed of it and
Opuntia, imposing in appearance but none too handsome, at least
during the dry months when the leaves are more than ordinarily
gray with dust. The species is related to the Mexican group of
agaves that supply pulque, and it may have been introduced into
Guatemala from Mexico. While this is possible, it is less probable,
because the size of the plants would make their transportation from
such a distance difficult. It seems more likely that the plant was
originally native in the Quezaltenango region and perhaps else-
where in Guatemala, but that the wild plants have all been reset
in the hedges
. It is recorded by Fuentes y Guzman (Recordacion
Florida 1: 289. Madrid, 1882; fide Trelease) that two centuries ago
excellent pulque was produced at Almolonga or Ciudad Vieja in
Sacatepequez and at San Gaspar. Quite possibly this was the result
of the influence of the Mexican mercenaries who took part in the
conquest of Guatemala. Trelease is of the opinion that Agave tecta
must have been the species used for the purpose. Of course, it is
conceivable that there may have been large plantations formerly
about Antigua and that the plants were destroyed when pulque was
no longer demanded or permitted. From the few plants of Nopalea
now surviving about Antigua, one would never suppose that in the
valley there were formerly hundreds or thousands of acres of Nopalea
grown for production of cochineal…”


My good friend and noted Guatemalan botanist Juan Jose Castillo, knowing my fondness for A. tecta and A. thomasiae, was kind enough to send me a photo of this orphaned flowering plant at Santa Cruz del Quiche, taken in late May of this year. This semi-rural environment is the usual setting for many relictual populations of this species today. I have not seen A. tecta cultivated in Guatemala outside of Los Altos since the mid-1980s, and most of the old hedgerows and boundary lines made with this species around Quezaltenango have been bulldozed to make way for urban development.
Flowering Agave tecta SCQ.jpg
Flowering Agave tecta SCQ.jpg (77.38 KiB) Viewed 2941 times
Like the overwhelming majority of Guatemalan agaves, this species is (surprise!!) not really suitable for pot culture beyond infancy.

Cheers,

J
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Re: Agave tecta

#14

Post by Spination »

Many thanks for your contribution to this thread, not only considering your fondness for the species, but also your experience regarding it's current native habitat.

I most certainly am delighted to know this species is not necessarily cold sensitive, in fact to the contrary. That bodes very well for my success growing this plant where I'm at, and likely then without the need for any special considerations.

I have to suggest, and with all due appreciation and respect, that the early source material you have kindly included although interesting from a historical point of view does not strike me as terribly relevant to solving the question of this plant's origin, namely due to the fact that these botanists/plantsmen come into the picture centuries well after the fact - 1915 and 1952 respectively. Additionally, the comments made by Standley and Steyermark seem to be particularly obtuse, given that if these plants were transported from elsewhere, they most certainly would NOT have been brought as massive specimens, but as all too easily transportable offsets, and then grown. This is so obvious to me I am actually shocked that they even suggested such commentary as reasonable argument for their opinion. Personally, I'd be embarrassed to make such an apparently unconsidered comment myself as it amounts to nothing less than sheer ignorance of the painfully obvious. Then again, 1952 was before I was born, so perhaps it's not fair for me to say that what is entirely obvious and logical in this day and age, might not have been some sort of equivalent to rocket science back then. There is no question either regarding perishable considerations for the offsets during even extended transport (such as by traversing distances by foot hundreds of years ago), as I myself have had pups sitting around in limbo of a large hybrid growing on our property for a year, with no appreciable precaution other than just keeping them out of the hot sun. Neither would time be an issue, as I don't see why a culture highly valuing these plants would be impatient to grow some thing new or special acquired from elsewhere from small, easily transported plants.

Of note however, is commentary by Fuentes y Guzman that 2 centuries ago, excellent pulque was produced, yet the only remaining viable candidate for this endeavor appears to be A. tecta. This would support the presumed purpose or use for growing this plant in the region. Also, the comment "quite possibly this was the result of the influence of the Mexican mercenaries who took part in the conquest of Guatemala" (which time period would be circa 1530-1697) supports the idea or comment mentioned by Gentry regarding the introduction of the plant "post conquest times", depending on one's interpretation of what that means exactly, in terms of the extended time period involved.

I also find of particular interest, and that it strikes me as a distinct and reasonable possibility, the Abisai Garcia-Mendoza notation that "A. tecta may represent a selected variety of A. salmiana". Perhaps as well selections/hybrids/breeding programs additionally involving other giants (such as A. mapisaga) very long ago used for the all important culturally embedded purposes of the precolumbian peoples who prevailed before Spanish conquest. In any case, this supposition would again support the idea that this plant was introduced from elsewhere. Likely, as mentioned, future genetic/molecular evaluations would shed light on the question.

From an evolutionary point of view, I find it difficult to imagine that one particularly massive species would have evolved on it's own, to become indigenous in isolation in a remote area from the viewpoint of proximity to other massive or intermediary agave species. Where is the evidence in the form of other more and closely related species from which this plant might have evolved together? I don't believe that's how it works. It makes much more sense that this species was derived where other known massive species were kept, often in close proximity, and in cultivation (and where remnant populations till exist today), and then transported subsequently in the form of offsets.

Anyway, your post was a very good one, and thanks too for the picture of the flowering specimen your friend forwarded to you. That is most definitely a truly majestic and imposing plant.
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Re: Agave tecta

#15

Post by Stone Jaguar »

Thanks for the comments.

Many Mesoamerican phytogeographic puzzles are far from resolved and indeed often involve human influences incl. transport and/or provocation of localized extinctions, regional climate change, and/or are simply artifices of collecting. As I mentioned in the post, I wouldn't care to bet on the origins of A. tecta, but would point to an even more extreme case of an "inexplicable hiatus" within a genus of giant plants as evidence that A. tecta could indeed just be a disjunct population of the subgenus whose genetic links to populations in SE Mexico have been lost due to factors we don't understand at this point; that of the cycad genus Dioon. The lack of any confirmed records for plants of this genus from southwestern Chiapas, across all of Guatemala and through to northeastern Honduras poses a very interesting question as to how the blazes D. mejiae was isolated there and became so abundant. The Guatemalan cycad flora, while mostly unpublished at this point, is pretty well known to a few researchers. For a wide variety of reasons it seems very unlikely there are extant populations of Dioon there awaiting discovery. There is a lot of ground between western Chiapas and Olancho, Honduras; obviously far more than the distance between western Guatemala and the Chiapas-Oaxaca border that we are contemplating when discussing the putative close relatives of A. tecta. Coincidentally, Paul Standley was the senior author on the description of this species and noted the very large distance between D. mejiae in Honduras and the nearest population of D. spinulosum on the Yucatan Peninsula. D. mejiae is morphologically fairly uniform and quite distinct from its relatives in southern Mexico with the most proximate populations, D. spinulosum and D. merolae. Offhand, I can't recall anyone who seriously proposes Pre Columbian human dispersal as the reason there is this huge "gap" in the distribution of Dioon. I believe some of the oldest specimens of this species are calculated to be over 1,000 years old. Food for thought.

Perhaps Standley & Steyermark were considering the amount of time that it takes to grow this species to flowering size (they are slow, IME) from an offset and thus the impracticality of transporting older plants for pulque production from the highlands of Oaxaca or Chiapas on the backs of men. Even assuming native origin, moving large examples of these plants from random placements in the landscape to hedgerows must have been a challenge, even with forced labor and oxcarts, if indeed they were moved in the early centuries of Spanish rule. There is an interesting parallel here with other indigenous/near endemic, large agave relatives, Furcraea quicheensis and F. tuberosa var. samalana. As far as I know, these striking species have not been found growing wild in Guatemala by botanists, yet are an abundant and conspicuous plant throughout the western highlands (part. F. quicheensis) where they are used for fiber production, in hedgerows and as boundary markers.

As an aside, I'm interested in knowing the origin of the plants shown here. A couple don't resemble tecta I have handled. This agave has very deep, trough shaped, dark green leaves, even in youth.

Cheers,

J
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Re: Agave tecta

#16

Post by Paul S »

Fascinating stuff, Jay. Thank you for taking time to post such detail. As you possibly gather, I don't buy into then 'transported from Mexico' theory so it is pleasing to read of sensible reasons why this might not be the case!

Spination - your supposition is that Agave tecta is a hybrid originating in Mexico - was it ever suggested that Agave tecta is of hybrid origin, rather than a giant salmiana cultivar? And unless I don't read it correctly you use both 500 years for the period that the plant has been sat changing into a species but also say earlier that the conquest didn't finish for another 150 years - the time seems flexible according to the point being made. Either way it isn't a great amount of time for a plant to evolve into something completely different from its purported Mexican parent population.

Jay - as an aside, which Beschorneria species is found in Guatemala? B. albiflora?
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Re: Agave tecta

#17

Post by Stone Jaguar »

Yes, Paul. Apparently uncommon and very local, but B. albiflora occurs in wet montane habitats around Quezaltenango and elsewhere in the western highlands. I think that Garcia-Mendoza's publication was first report of this sp. for Guatemala.

Cheers,

J
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Re: Agave tecta

#18

Post by Spination »

I am most appreciative of all the food for thought; very stimulating material which I am considering, and a virtual springboard for some researching now preparing a considered response. I'll need a few days but I'm focusing on the differences between Zamiaceae and Asparagaceae. If we're going to compare similarities between them in consideration of the mysteries of origin in the region in terms of present day disjunct populations, I think it is quite fair if not entirely necessary to consider their differences as well: history, age (Order, Family and even individual plants - lifespan), reproduction, anthropogenic considerations. As a quick preview as to the direction of my thoughts - "The family Zamiaceae is more diverse, with a fossil record extending from the middle Triassic to the Eocene (54–200 mya) in North and South America, Europe, Australia, and Antarctica, implying the family was present before the break-up of Pangea." - which long predates the Chicxulub impact crater mass extinction event emanating from the Yucatan Peninsula some 66 million years ago. Agave by comparison is much younger, a more recent invention of Nature evolved distinctly in the New World. More later after I research a variety of information...

I also acknowledge that you are open minded as to the question of origin, as am I...so this is most certainly not an argument, but reasoned consideration of a mutually interesting subject.

I'm also quite interested in your comment that examples of the plants depicted above don't resemble tecta you have handled. The 3 plants pictured all seem quite similar to each other at this stage of their still early development. I think Ron's picture of the one from DD originated from Keith, as did Winston's, and if memory serves, Keith's plant originates from HBG stock. Of course, I am assuming that an organization such as HBG would have acquired their original plant(s) from Guatemala. Mine comes directly from Europe, so I don't know how closely related they are or aren't from the HBG clone. The only clue I have regarding it's immediate ancestor is this image of a larger plant than my offset from which mine originates:
I don't know if this is the mother plant or just a sibling - in any case still a relatively young and small plant
A tecta Ebay listing UK a X775.png
A tecta Ebay listing UK a X775.png (926.49 KiB) Viewed 1230 times

Paul - I respect your thoughts and opinion "don't buy into then 'transported from Mexico' theory". When you say "Spination - your supposition is", keep in mind that by definition a supposition is "an uncertain belief".
I thought I was careful not to express my thoughts in terms of absolutes. I do not have at this point (or even ever will) a set opinion whether Gentry's quoted remark that I included earlier is correct or not. I don't think Gentry was certain either which is why I should have used his more complete quote: "may have been transported to Guatemala in post-conquest times..." Perhaps too I should have also included from Gentry: "Of course, it is conceivable that there may have been large plantations formerly about Antigua and that the plants were destroyed when pulque was no longer demanded or permitted." For that matter, I don't know why we should assume that A. tecta could not have been imported to the region long before the conquest. There is no written information I've found that is definitive one way or the other. I also do not know that A. tecta is or isn't a hybrid, or that it may be a selection of A. salmiana as Garcia-Mendoza opines. However, given man's known intervention and meddling with the evolution of Agave, it certainly must be considered that it could be of hybridized origin. Considering man's influence on the possible creation of Agave species (thousands of years of interrelationship), we can't ignore either man's influence on the destruction of Agave due to the influence of Spanish conquest or even more recent efforts "The decline of pulque began in the first decade of the 20th century, when the Mexican Revolution caused a decline in its production. In the 1930s, the government of Lázaro Cárdenas campaigned against pulque, as part of an effort to reduce alcoholic consumption in general". Anyway, we recognize A. macroculmis, A. mapisaga (with the clone Lisa originating from a plant dealer of Queretaro, Mexico as "maguey lisa", and Gentry unable to locate the plant himself in Mexico), A. salmiana (ferox, crassispina, angustifolia), and A. tecta as members within Salminae, which in itself assumes they are more closely related than not. Regarding 500 years, or 350 years, or longer... I do agree completely with your comment " Either way it isn't a great amount of time for a plant to evolve into something completely different from its purported Mexican parent population." although if it's completely different as you have said, I have to wonder why Garcia-Mendoza would state "A. tecta may represent a selected variety of A. salmiana" which suggests more similarity than complete difference. If correct regarding a selected variety of A. salmiana, that could even question separate species status, as it would then actually be a sub-species. Consider the currently outrageous variation within A. salmiana comparing a typical A. salmiana and the cultivar "Mr. Ripple". Lastly in that avenue of thought, as Lisa as a clone of A. mapisaga is different from A. mapisaga (Lisa being much larger), how outrageous is it then to suppose A. tecta could be a clone derived from A. salmiana and/or it's closest allies, whether specifically derived from one species (salmiana) or the result of interbreeding (hybrid)? What we know for sure, and the same went for Gentry, Trelease, and Standley & Steyermark, is that we don't know for sure. D)) We can only guess and suppose, which is all I am doing. So, I am not buying into or out of the theories conjectured at this point. Some day, I hope we have advanced to the point of genetic/molecular evaluations of these various Agave species to gain better insight.

The strongest opinion that I actually offered is the rejection of the reasoning given by Standley and Steyermark that while "possible, it is less probable..." that A. tecta was introduced from Mexico "because the size of the plants would make their transportation from such a distance difficult". The reasoning is faulty if not laughable in that they apparently ruled out or did not consider the much more plausible explanation that the plants could easily have been transported long distances as offsets, rather than large plants.

All in good fun, no disrespect intended to anyone here. More on the idea of disjunct populations later...
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Re: Agave tecta

#19

Post by Stone Jaguar »

Spiney:

I used the example of Dioon since many agave growers also have proclivities for collecting Neotropical cycads so would be familiar with the species involved. There are numerous examples of curious disjunctions in some genera of other noteworthy plant families in Mesoamerica, including some relatively young ones that are often aggressively evolving in the (geological) present, like the Orchidaceae.

The most logical explanation I have for these distributions in simplified form is that - when they are not plants with seeds susceptible to long-distance avian dispersal such as some aroids and epiphytic cacti - these "outpost" taxa, as is perhaps the case in A. tecta, have persisted or even thrived at the far end of historical distributions while linkage populations in the intervening landscapes have perished over time. With curtailed genetic flow, presumably the distinctions between two or more allopatric sib spp would have become more marked over time.

Please note that my read (from Spanish) is that Garcia-Mendoza appears to be of open mind with regard to the identity of A. tecta; while having a working hypothesis vis a vis A salmiana, in closing makes a point of stating that he wants to see genetic work done on it and Furcraea tuberosa var. samalana before making a definitive judgement. I think his familiarity with both A. tecta and the considerable diversity across A. salmiana populations in the field makes his opinion a very valuable one.

The UK eBay plant certainly has the right look, even to the deadly terminal spine and "U" shaped, almost folded older leaf cross-section but color is very odd. I have never seen a glaucous tecta. Obviously, doesn't mean they don't exist, but I've never come across one. Perhaps the leaf color is in response to the conditions it's being grown in? If you check out an online image of a labeled plant at the HBG posted online by "PalmBob", you'll see what I mean about the color. Given Howard Gentry's very close and well-documented relationship with the HBG, I am assuming their plants originated from an accession/s he made in Guatemala when he was there in the 1970s. People on this forum with good connections to their succulent curator should be able to find the accession data on this with ease.

On another topic; are people in the US/UK growing true A. hurteri? The giant ones dragged into captivity by local farmers from the moraine fields of the Cuchumatanes plateau in Huehuetenango (~3,200 m) are, to my mind, even more impressive and certainly more showy than A. tecta. The largest ones I have seen growing on rock walls on the road to Laguna Magdalena are so outrageous I won't even bother talking dimensions since they were so huge I didn't bother stopping to measure them. Would have spoiled the magic to know they weren't really eight m across ;^)

Cheers,

J
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Re: Agave tecta

#20

Post by Luc »

Interesting. Stone Jaguar, and this one, does it matches with the A. tecta you seen over there ?

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Re: Agave tecta

#21

Post by Stone Jaguar »

Luc:

It is hard to tell from these photos, but "yes", dark army green would be the color to look for in adults, not gray. Conspicuous terminal spine + deep guttered or trough-shaped leaves also a key character in individuals I have some in contact with. I have never taken pups off of small cultivated plants, but guess there is probably some very real morphological variation between an offset pulled off of a meter wide specimen grown in captivity and those hacked off of a two or three meter wide specimen grown under native conditions.

Beautiful collections of well-grown agaves, by the way.

J
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Re: Agave tecta

#22

Post by Spination »

Cheers D))

No problem. I'll not bother then to write a report regarding cycad vs agave and the disjunct populations, as that was only provided as another specific example of the phenomenon itself.

Yes, that's how I viewed the Garcia-Mendoza information as well.

Thanks for commenting on the UK plant and it's appearance in terms of looking correct albeit odd coloration. I had the same thought as you regarding potential reasons of differences in growing culture and their effect. I believe the key factor is all about light.

Mine has been sheltered, in bright but indirect light, although considerably hotter than the ambient outdoor temperature. I have no doubt that if I put it into direct sunshine, it would lose at least some of it's current glaucous appearance, thinking about similar results when moving A. franzosinii from more shade to more sun, and similarly with an A. sobria specimen incorrectly represented to me as A. gigantensis. The same could be said for my A. mapisaga var Lisa plants which were much more glaucous when smaller and babied (sheltered) than now when they are larger and getting much more sun - now more green than they ever have been.

However, and more importantly, due to some personal work done in the last 6 months, having to do with the effect of light quality (red vs blue wavelenghts) on some succulent plants (Aloe and Agave), I've also come to appreciate how light quality changes by season, time of day, and latitude of any given point on Earth, due to the angle of the sun in the sky (the phenomenon is called Rayleigh scattering) . I've become aware how this resulting quality of light can affect the coloring of agave, even including quality of variegation in the enigmatic A. FO76. I've been able to artificially simulate with LED lighting more winter like conditions known to bring out this variegation with a greater proportion of red to blue LEDs. This exact phenomenon would be a factor regarding the quality of light in Guatemala, compared to S.F., with the implication of it's effect on the coloration of A. tecta for example. The difference is due to Guatemala being 1600 miles closer to the equator than SF, and thus receives a different proportion of red to blue light, as red and blue light scatters differently through Earth's atmosphere depending on the angle of the sun in the sky. I'm mentioning this because it's a very plausible and scientific explanation for why an A. tecta in Guatemala would grow more green, and A. tecta grown in Northern Hemispheres more glaucous. We know that the two major bandwidths most important and useful for plants is red and blue light, and I have come to know that the proportion of each in the ambient light reaching the plant can affect it's coloration.

As far as I know, you are also correct regarding Gentry's connection with HBG, and I had the exact same thought that perhaps their plants were a result of his efforts. I had to look again at Palmbob's photos (DavesGarden forum) of the HBG plant, because I was under the impression they were images of plants at the LA Zoo. Turns out, there are several photos representing plants there and HBG too.

Thanks for mentioning A. hurteri. It's not one I have or am too familiar with, but due to your comments is one I definitely now want to more about, if not acquire a couple.
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Re: Agave tecta

#23

Post by Spination »

Paul – I was doing more thinking inspired by your comments regarding time frames and achieving uniform, true breeding forms. Due to long ago but intensive experience and knowledge achieved with the example I'm about to give, I believe that the assumption of requiring long time frames is not necessarily necessary. I look no further than a domesticate we are all very familiar with – Canis familiaris. Extensive genetic studies undertaken during the 2010s indicate that dogs diverged from an extinct wolf-like canid in Eurasia 40,000 years ago. Yet distinct breeds have been achieved in far shorter time frames, even measured in mere hundreds of years. Look at the amazing diversity considering one extreme to another – Chihuahua compared to Great Dane. One clear example I can give to illustrate just how dramatic the effect of selection can be influencing the look of even one particular breed... Google “German Shepherd”. Take a look at the Wiki illustration from 1909 of a typical German Shepherd. It hardly at all resembles what is now considered a typical and correct representative you would see at a dog show. In a very short relative time span, representing just a handful of generations, a completely different looking animal has resulted – that also breeds true. If you breed 2 present day “typey” G.S. together, I can guarantee you will see zero percent of the time anything that looks like that Wiki 1909 image in the progeny. Having been most familiar with the Working Dog Group, I recently saw a Burnese Mountain Dog, and couldn't believe how large they are now compared to the 70s when I knew them. They are HUGE....like about ½ again the size that they used to be. I recently saw a Great Pyrenees dog in town that was even larger and massive than my St Bernards in the 1970s were. My male champion outweighed me, and this Great Pyrenees would have made mine look shrimpy by comparison. You never, ever would have seen such a thing only 40 years ago. My point is the powerful effect of selection by mankind breeding domesticates. I don't care really if the domesticates being considered are dogs, or Agave. Genetics is genetics. I can also assure you that breeding mammals and influencing important features is way more complex than much more genetically simple representatives of the plant kingdom.

Some Agave are known domesticates bred by man for hundreds and even thousands of years, especially those that were more important for purposes of pulque production by mesoamericans. If you would, think of some of these species, as “breeds”, much like the domesticated dog. It's not then any kind of stretch at all to realize that dramatically different phenotypes could be achieved that could also breed true in a relatively short time frame, just as man has done with the dog.

In Agave, we are looking at two different forces at work in the past when evaluating present day species. I think the tendency in botany has been to split, more than lump, and when we see something different, we will often apply a separate species name. Anyway, one force in the creation of different species can be attributed to Nature, and a very long process known as evolution, due to selection pressures influenced by adaptation and survival of the fittest. The other force we are not really giving due consideration is the force of selection by mankind for purposes of domestication. These two different effects have been very relevant in the genus of Agave for the last several to many centuries, and there is a complete lack of documentation delineating these activities.

Additionally, whereas dogs can not clone themselves, but must be bred to achieve changes down the line, plants such as Agave have the additional avenue of selecting mutations from offsets, and using them for creating new differing stock. So, more than one avenue available by man in the development of special strains.

In the case of achieving a unique agave such as A. tecta, we are only talking about what should be a simple achievement even by primitive peoples realizing a distinctive form possibly if not probably derived from something similar – like A. salmiana for example. I could probably make the same argument for some of the other "species" within the group, such as A. mapisaga as another example.

Anyway, it's all very interesting stuff, and I most assuredly appreciate the discussion.
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Re: Agave tecta

#24

Post by Gee.S »

There may well be more than one line of dogs, and hominid/canid coevolution may date back much further, but I digress. Canids have proven unusually genetically malleable. Similar efforts will not produce similar results in felines, for example. Be that as it may, our skills in recognition make it far easier to distinguish certain characteristics in mammals over Agaves, and canid neotenization is particularly easy to recognize. Beyond that, we have canids maturing and reproducing at under two years, while Agaves are closer to twenty (on average). We can recognize desirable canid features in months, while doing the same in Agaves might consume 5-50 years. So, all things being equal 200 dog years translates toward at least 2,000 Agave years. And all things are not equal, far from it.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Agave tecta

#25

Post by Spination »

Your points are well taken, and indisputable IMO. All things are not equal, but there are similarities and similar forces at work, and I was not looking at it in terms of a 1 to 1 comparison. Yet, that doesn't dismiss the points I was trying to make either. Without looking it up, from memory, I believe physical evidence of human dependency on Agave dates back some 8,000+ (?) years, in the form of coprolites found in caves. That's a lot and plenty of time for mankind to grow and tamper with Agave genetics, none of which is historically detailed in terms of written records for us to look back and know exactly what all was done and when. Hohokam canal systems date back as far as circa 600 CE, and we know those peoples grew Agave on terraces, and even developed their own and some only now recognized "new" species. They are not in fact new, only new to us in terms of discovery and recognition. And here, we are most certainly not talking about eons, but a space of time well within the last 2,000 years. We also know these peoples were influenced by even more ancient peoples to the south, to whom Agave was central and important within their cultures. So important, they had their own named god representing the Agave plant. What exactly do we know about what they grew, what species we call them today, and how they came to be? I would suggest that answer is something to the order of near squat. What I am suggesting is that it's not at all far-fetched to imagine that something like A. tecta could have been the product of human manipulations and breeding programs within time frames feasible for such activities also within the time frames currently known of the peoples who once were - in that general pertinent area involved.
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