Unintentional coring by rot

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Spination
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Unintentional coring by rot

#1

Post by Spination »

A disappointment in January, to discover this plant already with 4 years invested growing it develop a crown rot problem... leaves were cut, chemicals applied to try and stop the rot, and just for fun, some rooting hormone powder applied as well. More rotting leaves needed to be cut off later as well, after the mess was moved and just left to sit in a better situation, a heated greenhouse kit, without much other than hope that something good might come of it.
Here's the plant late last year...before the troubles
2016 08 13 A vr MP Thai X750.jpg
2016 08 13 A vr MP Thai X750.jpg (235.54 KiB) Viewed 3801 times
And the problem
2017 01 17 NOOOOOOOOOOOO a X750.jpg
2017 01 17 NOOOOOOOOOOOO a X750.jpg (233.93 KiB) Viewed 3801 times
The cure?
2017 01 17 NOOOOOOOOOOOO d X750.jpg
2017 01 17 NOOOOOOOOOOOO d X750.jpg (237.17 KiB) Viewed 3801 times
relocated
2017 01 18 A vic reg MP #1 Thailand X750.jpg
2017 01 18 A vic reg MP #1 Thailand X750.jpg (268.64 KiB) Viewed 3801 times
Inspection today...
2017 03 06 A vic reg MP #1 a X750.jpg
2017 03 06 A vic reg MP #1 a X750.jpg (248.87 KiB) Viewed 3801 times
2017 03 06 A vic reg MP #1 b.JPG
2017 03 06 A vic reg MP #1 b.JPG (112.6 KiB) Viewed 3801 times
2017 03 06 A vic reg MP #1 c.JPG
2017 03 06 A vic reg MP #1 c.JPG (58.75 KiB) Viewed 3801 times
Not sure if the rest of the leaves will continue in turn to deteriorate, but in the meantime, the plant is now behaving as if it had been cored. Tiny new plantlets are popping out of the stem all around it, and in between lower leaves that are currently dying off. I was about to cut off those lower dying leaves, but after prying them downwards somewhat, saw more tiny offsets hiding behind them, and decided to let it be and continue hoping for the best. The disaster is thus showing signs of hope, that in the mother plant's stead, new replacements are on the way. The larger offset coming off the bottom was already developing as of last year, and appears unaffected by the rotting event.
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#2

Post by Viegener »

This v-r was in a greenhouse, not outdoors, right?
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#3

Post by Spination »

Yes, it was in the 3rd of my one by one added greenhouse kits, the newest of the group. Problem is, I had an electrical issue that created a hassle for me hooking up a small heater I had arranged for that newest kit.
There were just too many freezing days, and even in shelter, the cold which created condensation on the ceiling as Monger most likely correctly surmised, must have arbitrarily dripped onto that plant, obviously combined with the presence of some fungal spores probably blown in previously on some breezy day causing crown rot.
There were other plants (most of them vic reg) right up against that pot, on every side, and all the way down that whole top shelf, but that was the only Agave affected.
Too late, I figured out the electrical short problem, and it is heated now, with no more condensation issues to contend with.
Anyway, it boils down to that old { (cold + wet) X too many days = no good } for a lot of these plants I'm growing.
I can't complain too much. There were some 500 plants stuffed in there, and I think there were 4 problems in total. 1 Aloe hybrid (salvaged 2 pups), 1 Agave (this one), and 2 Sansevieria (dead and dead).
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#4

Post by Viegener »

I think 4 out of 500 is pretty good really. Less than 1% loss, in a rough winter...
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#5

Post by Spination »

Absolutely. But that was just the plants in that one kit in unheated shelter for at least the first 3/4 of the freeze nights. No problem in the others that were kept heated enough to avoid any freezing, but the outdoor plants are a different story. I haven't really yet completely assessed those losses and damage in it's entirety. Definitely a few losses, but a fair amount of damage scattered throughout. A few look downright awful, and I'll wait until spring weather finally takes hold before tossing the goners, and deciding which plants may regrow, and which ones are too bad to even bother with.
Speaking of spring weather, this AM and the morning before both @ 38F, far from typical for this late into the year already. A 40F the day before, 36 before that, and 9 consecutive days before that in the lower 30s. In my memory, my feeling was that once we made it though December, with the potential of a few days in January, we were pretty much home clear. This time around, a winter to remember, or forget, depending on one's point of view.
On the news the last couple of days, they were talking about the rare occurrence of "once or twice in a lifetime" snow, as one newscaster put it, that we just got at higher elevations surrounding the Bay Area, such as Mt. Diablo.
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/A ... 980772.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Clearly, the problems I experienced with my plants this time around reflect the severity and rarity of this most unusual winter.
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#6

Post by Spination »

update

The plant itself not looking great, but those offsets are growing fast!
2017 03 21 A vr MP #1 offset progress X800.jpg
2017 03 21 A vr MP #1 offset progress X800.jpg (261.38 KiB) Viewed 3730 times
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#7

Post by Spination »

This is absolutely amazing, because I've never had results this good even doing a 'coring' intentionally. Not even close... must be a lesson to be learned therein.
Including the largest offset at the bottom, there are now 11 and counting, and now they're coming out of the top too...
2017 04 03 A vr MP #1 a.jpg
2017 04 03 A vr MP #1 a.jpg (93.22 KiB) Viewed 3694 times
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#8

Post by Viegener »

Wow! I've been looking for a v-r medio-variegata & they are super hard to find!
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#9

Post by Spination »

I've found that pups removed from the mother plant are super slow growing, at least until they get to a larger size where there's enough of an aggregation of chlorophyll to spur on faster growth.
Believe it or not, these here are already 3 years old, removed from the above plant long before the trouble with it this year.
2017 03 24 A vr MP #2 P1 P2 P3 b X800.jpg
2017 03 24 A vr MP #2 P1 P2 P3 b X800.jpg (216.98 KiB) Viewed 3683 times
Given there will be more now apparently in the future, I'd be willing to part with one of these.
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#10

Post by Spination »

Updated fresh photo one month later- 11 offsets now and they're still growing fast
The mother plant now looks stable and leaves no longer appear to be deteriorating. I'm now thinking the mother plant could well survive, and a nice crop of offsets coming out of it everywhere.
2017 05 04 A vr MP a X800.jpg
2017 05 04 A vr MP a X800.jpg (206.84 KiB) Viewed 3634 times
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#11

Post by toditd »

What a nice recovery of such an unfortunate situation!
I'm wondering how the mother plant will survive without a core. Will it form a new core in time?
Do I see further rot coring experiments in your future? Oh no, not that plant! :shock: D))
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#12

Post by Spination »

Sorry for the delay in answer, I missed your post somehow. :huh: Old Timer's Disease :lol:

Thanks. I couldn't have hoped for a better outcome given what happened and at one point only a few months ago what appeared to be the apparent prospect of losing the plant entirely.

That's a good question.

I have a couple of plants which continued on after growing an offset up top out of where the core was, and eventually the offset kind of took over for the plant. One was a 'Snow Glow' and another was a 'Rum Runner'. The RR still looks pretty weird but the Snow Glow after several years you can't even tell it's not all one original plant now. All the old leaves of the original plant are gone and the replacement rosette just took over the stem and roots - sorry, that's the best I can do trying to describe it.

In the case of this v-r ; 2 of the offsets are coming out right on top, out of the hole where the core was. I can either at some point when they're big enough remove and root them, or I suspect if I left those 2 on the plant and removed all the others, it would eventually become like some kind of 2-headed monster - 2 rosettes sharing one stem and root system (of the original mother plant). In time, all the original leaves of the mother plant would probably die, but I think given they are no longer rotting away, and actually look healthy again, that it could take several years before all the original rosette's leaves are completely replaced, leaving the 2 top growing rosettes in their place.

It sounds like a wild imagination or sci fi, but here's a plant I did core several years back. It was partially variegated, and I wanted to see if I could get some really nice variegates out of it. I wound up with 7 offsets I removed and rooted - 5 plain and 2 Medio Picta. I left 2 more plain on the original mother plant and let them grow. About a year or so ago, I was surprised to see a bonus 3rd MP coming out between them, so I removed and rooted that one too. Here are the 2 that are still growing in the stead of the mother plant.
Looks like 2 plants, right?
2017 05 06 A Blue Flame a X800.jpg
2017 05 06 A Blue Flame a X800.jpg (230.92 KiB) Viewed 3617 times
Except that here you can see they still share the mother plant's original stem and root system. So, 2 heads, 1 body. :o
The mother plant's original rosette is gone, but the part of it's stem with original roots lives on supported by 2 rosettes which were offsets but basically took over the remaining stem/roots.
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#13

Post by toditd »

Your description makes perfect sense. In this case, the mother's apical meristem is replaced by one or more interstitial offsets growing in the void left by the removed core. Since what remains of the mother plant has recovered, its remaining leaves will continue through their natural cycle. Meanwhile the offset will co-opt the original stem and root system. Very interesting!
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#14

Post by Spination »

Exactly, and very well said!
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#15

Post by Spination »

Last update was in May. Some progress since.
For some reason, these lyrics come to mind...
"Lady Madonna, children at your feet, wonder how you manage to make ends meet?"
A dozen offsets supported by the original plant does seem rather extreme...
2017 10 08 A vr MP Thai a.jpg
2017 10 08 A vr MP Thai a.jpg (86.31 KiB) Viewed 3310 times
2017 10 08 A vr MP Thai b.jpg
2017 10 08 A vr MP Thai b.jpg (97.09 KiB) Viewed 3310 times
2017 10 08 A vr MP Thai c.jpg
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#16

Post by DesertDweller »

Wow. :eek:
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#17

Post by kitty »

Wow that is remarkable! Thank you so much for posting all the details and updates. You've given me hope. I have a variegated agave attenuata that's gotten frost damage. I'm waiting to see if it will recover. I'm thinking of coring it if it doesn't but not sure if I should wait until it's completely dead or what?
I'm in Southern California and we've had heavy rain in the last 2 days. I SHOULD have moved it under the patio but I keep thinking it's a agave so it should tolerant some rough weather. I'm kicking myself for not moving it much earlier before our weather hit 40 degrees in the AM. It was sitting out in the open but we keep getting warm 70 degree weather in December! It's suppose to be in the 70's for the next 7 days, then 60's. This is the warmest winter ever! My plumerias are so confused, most are losing their leaves but a few are still trying to bloom! Here's a pic of my agave - the crevices/dents are the results of the frost damage. The crushed leaves are from poor handling when I first got the agave 4 months ago.
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#18

Post by kitty »

I just wanted to clarify a couple of things. Agave attenuata's cold hardiness is around 28 degrees. When this damage happened, our temp was around 40 BUT the plant may have been wet from watering day before AND we had high wind which lowered to temp even more so I'm guessing it may have been about 30 degrees? Also this poor agave was recovering from some leaf damage like I mentioned so it wasn't in the best of health to start with. I'm hoping it will pull through.
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#19

Post by Gee.S »

You'll find out within the next couple weeks. Core will either detach or it won't. In the meantime, nothing to do but wait. Try pulling the core up and out of the plant in about 10 days. If it's firm and holds, it should be good.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#20

Post by Spination »

One year after the initial incident - current condition 12 offsets growing

So, this is the good part of this post
2018 03 04 Agave MP Thai a _ 12 offsets.jpg
2018 03 04 Agave MP Thai a _ 12 offsets.jpg (86.94 KiB) Viewed 3104 times
I want these offsets growing from out of this plant all over, including out of the top, to get much larger before I pull and root them. I'm pretty sure in the end, the original rosette will either die, or one of the rosettes coming out of the top will take it over, provided I leave one there to grow.

*****************************************************************************************

And here is the "awww crap" part of this post....

Just saw this today. It's been cold, so the greenhouse kit this resides in must once again have had some moisture collect on the roof, and just perfectly by happenstance fall right smack into the rosette of this agave, and only this agave - causing crown rot. ::x ::x ::x And, this is in spite of the fact that this kit has a heater now which does come on in the middle of the night (midnight to 6 AM, at 1/2 hour intervals controlled by timer). So, it's not like this kit is damp and cold for days on end like what happened early last year.

Anyway...
I saw this, knew exactly what I was looking at, and just pulled it right off.
2018 03 04 A parryi Neomexicana Sunspot crown rot a.jpg
2018 03 04 A parryi Neomexicana Sunspot crown rot a.jpg (105.67 KiB) Viewed 3104 times
Essentially, this plant just got cored.
2018 03 04 A parryi Neomexicana Sunspot crown rot c.jpg
2018 03 04 A parryi Neomexicana Sunspot crown rot c.jpg (83.37 KiB) Viewed 3104 times
No more rot visible under the core which pulled out, so I just dumped some root hormone powder in the center like I did last year with the MP vic reg.
2018 03 04 A parryi Neomexicana Sunspot crown rot d.jpg
2018 03 04 A parryi Neomexicana Sunspot crown rot d.jpg (92.63 KiB) Viewed 3104 times
So, I guess I now have another experiment under way. Not sure if I'm happy, or mad. I think it's more of the latter right now, and hopefully will transform into the former later on. :huh:
At least there is another of these, and both have at least one pup growing as well. Whatever happens here, I'll still have some of this lovely cultivar.
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#21

Post by Drel »

Good luck with your Sunspot, Tom! Hope it grows right back out in droves like your V-R
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#22

Post by Spination »

Thank you. I don't think it will be anywhere near as dramatic, but I'm hoping for maybe some action. Really, no idea what will happen, and I have developed a bad case of curiosity. ::wink::
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#23

Post by Steph115 »

Your results with the vic reg are so amazing. So cool that it exploded with pups. I'm sorry about your neomexicana - I hope this adventure turns out to be even 10% as exciting ;)
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#24

Post by Spination »

Thanks. With damage like that to the apical core, I doubt the rosette will just resume growing. A typical response would be the plant putting more energy into reproduction instead. It would not be unreasonable to expect a couple of pups growing out of the center, and maybe more around the plant. Just have to wait and see. Another learning experience underway. :))
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Re: Unintentional coring by rot

#25

Post by Azuleja »

I bet you're gonna get a minor explosion of Sunspots too. That's going to be awesome eventually.
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