Agave whuteva of the exasperating elusive variegation

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Spination
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Agave whuteva of the exasperating elusive variegation

#1

Post by Spination »

So, as I understand it, which I freely admit I don't, but accepting of opinion more knowledgeable than mine... this is the agave that is not A. titanota, nor A. 'FO-76', but possibly something else that is unnamed.
Some people call or sell them as A. titanota, some as A. 'FO-76', but I guess you have to call them something, right?
Until there's future clarification, analysis, and agreement among those who would have an opinion far more credible than mine, these are now known in my collection as A. whuteva. I've already made numerous label changes with my plants, and given the years the debate has been going on already, I think there's a fair chance my new name of A. whuteva may stand for years to come until the correct ID of this plant is resolved. ::wink::

Sometimes, they're green. Sometimes, blue. Some have longer leaves, some short triangular leaves with fierce looking teeth. However, I've already learned from one particular plant I've had for years that you can take one of those compact, triangular, wide stubby leaved with fierce looking teeth and turn it into something quite different looking, with much longer leaves, and not so fierce looking teeth with insufficient lighting, unless that is just something that happens with age anyway. Dont know, not even sure I care. It's kind of an annoying group of plants, unless one likes being annoyed. :lol: Anyway, not my favorites, not by a long shot. Once, I thought they were much more appealing.

Also, this is one of those dagnab cultivars of the variegated persuasion, that nobody really has a clear idea what or why the variegation seems to be perhaps seasonal, perhaps light quality - but the bottom line is if you acquire one with the expectation that it will retain it's desirable variegation look of the moment, you're likely to be severely disappointed, exasperated, and frustrated, and maybe even a little ticked off for spending good money on what appears to be a temporary state of appearance.

Yeah, I asked people, listened to explanations, tried different things, searched and searched and read and read whatever is out there on the net that seems to be pertinent...and the bottom line is after years of frustration... I finally took one of these variegated variations and just threw it outside last winter. Yup, and I know they don't much like getting frosted. Just didn't care any more.

Here's the lay of the land... under an Aloe barberae, next to an Aloe Always Red, behind an A. parviflora. Outside, morning sun.
2017 05 17 A Whuteva MP aka titanota Solar Eclipse a X800.jpg
2017 05 17 A Whuteva MP aka titanota Solar Eclipse a X800.jpg (226.34 KiB) Viewed 1644 times
After several good frosts and freezes, you could say it took a bit of a beating. It looked like the core had melted, but it was this green impostor anyway of what it was supposed to be, so I didn't even care. If it died, good riddance. Although the core looked done, it apparently wasn't. A couple of new leaves emerged, damaged, but also highly variegated! As in, everything I've tried before, all advice listened to and taken... as in, this is the best ever result so far. More new leaves emerged undamaged, and still bright variegation. All I know is that after everything tried with very limited and unsatisfying results, after I gave up on the plant, threw it to the wolves so to speak, now it looks like it wants to grow as advertised! I'm not holding my breath, have no idea if this is the new version of this plant, or again only temporary, but it sure is an interesting development.
2017 05 17 A Whuteva MP aka titanota Solar Eclipse b.jpg
2017 05 17 A Whuteva MP aka titanota Solar Eclipse b.jpg (81.09 KiB) Viewed 1644 times
I mean, look at that thing. It looks like 2 different plants, one growing out of the other!

Here is another, situated right by that one above, but a bit more shade from the A. barberae, and banished to the outdoors about a month after the first. The first got all the brunt of our harsher than normal winter, but this one did get a few freezing lows as well, just not as many.
2017 05 17 A Whuteva MP aka titanota Solar Eclipse c.jpg
2017 05 17 A Whuteva MP aka titanota Solar Eclipse c.jpg (196.82 KiB) Viewed 1644 times
What the heck? Did the freeze trigger something? Is it a lame version of that old saying "whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger"? I have no idea, but I hope this time it lasts!
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Re: Agave whuteva of the exasperating elusive variegation

#2

Post by LJG »

At least yours flips between green and variegated. I have two different variegated TC'ed titanota from Plant Delights that reverted to solid green a year or two ago and never came back.
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Re: Agave whuteva of the exasperating elusive variegation

#3

Post by Spination »

Well, I have a number from different sources over the years, not just the PDN 3 I have. And, they all revert to green eventually. At least the PDN ones are actually cheap compared to what I paid for the others I had first. These two shown here doing the "flip" as you put it, didn't happen by itself though. They were reacting to a stimulus of shock in the form of freezing temp lows (we had 12 different days of 32 or lower from mid Dec to beginning of March). Enough to disrupt them, but not enough to kill them. The telling example is the one which was exposed to the full brunt of winter freezing lows, and now looks like one new plant growing out of the old one.
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Re: Agave whuteva of the exasperating elusive variegation

#4

Post by Spination »

Guess what? I definitely stumbled onto something here.
I did an experiment on 2 of these. I intended only one to begin with, but I froze it for too long (or did I?) @ 2 hours 40 min @ 18F. I looked at it after an hour, and it didn't feel very cold to me, so I kept leaving it longer and longer, and finally removing it from the freezer after over 2 1/2 hours.
I wrapped the pot in a rag, wrapped the rag in a plastic bag, rubber-banded it secure, then placed it in the freezer. I was not looking to freeze the root-zone (much :lol: ). Plant/soil was completely dry, and afterwards, I let it adjust to ambient outdoor temp for an hour, and then gave it a good soak.
This was right after coming out of the freezer - you can see the frosty-blue color, and wrinkling on the core.
2017 05 19 #3 d 12 10 to 2 50 freezer _ 2hr 40 min X800.jpg
2017 05 19 #3 d 12 10 to 2 50 freezer _ 2hr 40 min X800.jpg (246.51 KiB) Viewed 1549 times
TEMP FREEZER.jpg
TEMP FREEZER.jpg (60.86 KiB) Viewed 1549 times
3 days later, I saw that I apparently overdid it... lot of visible damage. Oh well... turns out I had acquired 4 of these ones anyway (from PDN), so... oh well... :oops:
2017 05 22 #3 a X950.jpg
2017 05 22 #3 a X950.jpg (74.83 KiB) Viewed 1549 times
I stashed it aside, and ignored it pretty much until today. Below is the result after 1 month. In the meantime, I should mention that I took another one, and did 2 different treatments of 1 hour each. No damage, but absolutely no effect either. Next step with that one is another treatment of 1 1/2 hours. Hopefully I'll find the right amount of freeze exposure, stimulating the variegation, but without damaging the plant...

Voila! SUCCESS! No special lighting, only 1 somewhat overdone freezer treatment.
2017 06 21 #3 one month later a.jpg
2017 06 21 #3 one month later a.jpg (82.4 KiB) Viewed 1549 times
Yeah, some freezer burnt leaves now, but new growth coming in variegated!
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Re: Agave whuteva of the exasperating elusive variegation

#5

Post by Stone Jaguar »

Tom:

Good observation and a very neat trick, but something with variegation as apparently as weak/unstable as this seems at risk to revert all over again when it recovers from the shock, no? I sense that you are quite the connoisseur of these obscure variegated agaves, but having to (periodically?) torture this one into color with the concurrent trade off in general good looks would seem to take a lot of the pleasure out of growing it.
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Re: Agave whuteva of the exasperating elusive variegation

#6

Post by Gee.S »

Yes, I've encountered something similar in my yard and out in habitat. In my case it is the extreme stress of bolting that revealed latent variegation. I strongly suspect that once the frozen Agave fully recovers, it will revert to its previously healthy (unvariegated) state.
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"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

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Re: Agave whuteva of the exasperating elusive variegation

#7

Post by Spination »

That's true. Variegation is unstable, and the process seems to evolve as a well variegated small pup, to a more mature rosette form that ebbs and flows seasonally (lighting changes) with regard to variegation, tending to become less and less variegated year over year, until there is no variegation apparent at all. It appears what I've found here, is a "reset button" in effect.

Here's the plant that gave me the idea. Fresh photo, and variegation still very strong. In fact, by far, the best variegation I've ever seen on one of these this size. This plant endured completely natural freezes of our unusually cold winter. It's a lousy photo, in sunshine, with the shadow of an Aloe barberae trunk across the rosette, but you can still see very well the very strong variegation, enduring already nearly into July. The important information gleaned from this plant will be to see just how long it lasts. I am more than willing to torture the plants once every couple of years, if that's what it takes, to "reset" the variegation factor, if I can also figure out the best freeze exposure to cause the desired effect, with little damage. So far, I know 2 hours 40 mins @ 18F is too much, and 1 hour is too little. I'm working on solving that equation with another plant right now. Today, I'm going to give it (the one exposed to 1 hour twice now with no effect) an hour and 1/2 - same temp (18F).
2017 06 21 A Whuteva MP #1 b.jpg
2017 06 21 A Whuteva MP #1 b.jpg (250.63 KiB) Viewed 1541 times
2017 06 21 A Whuteva MP #1 b a.jpg
2017 06 21 A Whuteva MP #1 b a.jpg (167.74 KiB) Viewed 1541 times
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Re: Agave whuteva of the exasperating elusive variegation

#8

Post by Stone Jaguar »

These variegated leaves all look like products of a moderately damaged meristem that has generated both positive and negative short-term returns with regard to leaf color and morphology. Rather than assuming that this plant sustains shock-induced bold variegation for years, the pertinent question here is what will the first couple of normal-sized leaves look like when they emerge and harden up later this year?

Good luck!

J
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Re: Agave whuteva of the exasperating elusive variegation

#9

Post by Spination »

That would be a reasonable assumption, except that I have much more information to reference.
Here was my very first such "Medio Picta titanota", except we all here know now it's not really a titanota. This one is one of my first several, and not the PDN 'Solar Eclipse' cultivar. In any case, spring 2012 - acquired @ the then going price of circa $150. Beautiful plant. It's a pup, and there's no meristem damage. This is how, with conducive lighting, the pups start out. This photo blows up the idea that the variegation is caused by meristem damage. This cultivar is genetically predisposed to bright variegation as a pup starting out, and the variegation is said to be seasonally affected. What the series of photos for this particular plant depict over a 5 year period is that this is not entirely true. The actual progression is that essentially, the variegation disappears over the years, but is affected by seasonal lighting changes.
2012 4 3  Titanota MP a.jpg
2012 4 3 Titanota MP a.jpg (175.33 KiB) Viewed 1534 times
One year later
2013 02 12 A titanota MP X850.jpg
2013 02 12 A titanota MP X850.jpg (92.31 KiB) Viewed 1534 times
Another year and a half
2014 08 10 A titanota MP 1 a X900.jpg
2014 08 10 A titanota MP 1 a X900.jpg (125.38 KiB) Viewed 1534 times
Late 2015
2015 10 11 A titanota MP #1 X850.jpg
2015 10 11 A titanota MP #1 X850.jpg (125.82 KiB) Viewed 1534 times
Finally, in an effort to simulate an extreme seasonal lighting change which is usually caused by the sun's angle in the sky (summer vs winter), I conducted an experiment with LED lights, 2 to 1 red to blue ratio, and achieved some degree of success. No freezing, no damage, just LED lighting for several months starting in Dec 2015
2015 12 29 A titanota MP 1 a X850.jpg
2015 12 29 A titanota MP 1 a X850.jpg (90.39 KiB) Viewed 1534 times
5 months later - definitely the best variegation on this plant achieved since I first acquired it... it was the light quality that made the difference, not the hours of lighting as per the season.
2016 05 20 A FO76 MP #1 X850.jpg
2016 05 20 A FO76 MP #1 X850.jpg (113.75 KiB) Viewed 1534 times
Problem was, the plant "got used" to it's LED regimen, and eventually in spite of continued LED usage, once again reverted to the green state. So, I was able to force an exaggerated seasonal lighting change effect with the initial use of LED lighting, but the final and best version of the plant still fell short of my goal, and the effects were temporary, as I had already experienced with others of this cultivar type. Still, compare this moderately successful re-acquisition of variegation by lighting compared to the current state of the plant in my preceding post. Not bad, but not even close to the promising result achieved with the plant which was subjected to a series of winter freezes.

The whole freezing idea is a radically different approach. In any case, I've been working on this variegation problem with these plants since 2012, trying numerous recommendations that revolve around the (incorrect) perception that the variegation is a seasonal manifestation (lighting obviously). Seasonal lighting has some limited effect, but not lasting, and year over year, the trend is a reduction in variegation ending with none at all to be seen.

In isolation, the freezing infers as you say that there is meristem damage which triggers latent variegation expression, but my previous experiments with lighting quality also demonstrates that even without actual damage, change in variegation can be triggered, although temporary and not very satisfying, in my opinion.

The freeze shocking of the plant and subsequent results represent the best success I've experienced to date bringing out the expression of variegation that these cultivars are genetically predisposed to achieving. No one else I've talked to about it over the years has provided me with anything remotely and ultimately satisfying regarding why this phenomenon occurs regarding this cultivar's variegation. Most say that it is seasonally induced.
I say that it's not that simple, and the end result over time (years) proves that explanation is essentially wrong anyway.
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Re: Agave whuteva of the exasperating elusive variegation

#10

Post by Spination »

This photo is just for sheer amusement. It's a side view photo of the last shot taken of the plant which is the subject of post #4. I had ignored the photo earlier, and just looked at it again, and noticed something funny I didn't see earlier. Notice anything odd?
2017 06 21 #3 one month later b.jpg
2017 06 21 #3 one month later b.jpg (82.06 KiB) Viewed 1517 times
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Re: Agave whuteva of the exasperating elusive variegation

#11

Post by agavegreg »

I always suspected that many of the variegates coming out of Japan a few years back was the result of chemical manipulation, but now see the light. :lol: The huge amount of variation in leaf color, leaf size, and leaf shape on the plants that resemble Agave FO-076 and are now incorrectly called A. titanota would appear to be the result of seed being collected off of possible hybrids from the Rio Calapa near Puente Calapa or Puente Santa Lucia. In both places, one can find a handful of A. titanota (providing the blue color), some A. kerchovei (providing the longer leaves) and a lot of the undescribed taxon with the short, chunky, broadly obovate, green leaves with or without central mid-stripe.
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IMG_4828 Agave kerchovei Santa Lucia hike alt.jpg
IMG_4828 Agave kerchovei Santa Lucia hike alt.jpg (129.42 KiB) Viewed 1511 times
Agave aff titanota
Agave aff titanota
IMG_4753 Agave cf titanota Santa Lucia alt.jpg (143.82 KiB) Viewed 1511 times
Agave "Sierra Mixteca"
Agave "Sierra Mixteca"
IMG_4702 Agave aff 'Sierra Mixteca' at Puente Santa Lucia.JPG (140.19 KiB) Viewed 1511 times
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Re: Agave whuteva of the exasperating elusive variegation

#12

Post by agavegreg »

Now some of the presumed hybrids found growing with the plants in the three previous pictures. I do not know which was the seed parent and which was the pollen parent, so the order in which possible parents are listed does not indicate which was mom and which was dad.
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IMG_4747 Agave kerchovei x Agave FO-076 Santa Lucia alt.jpg
IMG_4747 Agave kerchovei x Agave FO-076 Santa Lucia alt.jpg (158.74 KiB) Viewed 1509 times
IMG_4714 Agave aff 'Sierra Mixteca' x titanota at Puente Santa Lucia alt.jpg
IMG_4714 Agave aff 'Sierra Mixteca' x titanota at Puente Santa Lucia alt.jpg (128.38 KiB) Viewed 1509 times
IMG_4679 Agave kerchovei x Agave titanota at Puente Santa Lucia alt.jpg
IMG_4679 Agave kerchovei x Agave titanota at Puente Santa Lucia alt.jpg (163.08 KiB) Viewed 1509 times
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Re: Agave whuteva of the exasperating elusive variegation

#13

Post by Spination »

I think the probable hybrid case you make is very plausible, and makes a great deal of sense. We've got these plants out there being marketed with odd inconsistency - long leaves, short leaves. Short leaved specimens maturing and morphing into long leaves. Green, blue. Marginal spine variation. And, you've got these various plants in habitat in close proximity hybridizing, and hybrids also reproducing. That can certainly produce a wide range of confusing outcomes.
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