RSN now selling atrovirens?

Use this forum to discuss matters relating to Agave, Beschorneria, Furcraea, Hesperaloe, Hesperoyucca, Manfreda, Polianthes, Yucca and related species. This is where one posts unknown plant photos for ID help.
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DesertDweller
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RSN now selling atrovirens?

#1

Post by DesertDweller »

Hi all,

Found something odd today. Apparently RSN is now putting out purported A. atrovirens. Both of these were tagged as such, including the original tags from RSN. One was rough, reminding me of "Mr. Ripple" but other other was smooth. Both had offsets, although one far more than the other.

I checked their January 2018 availability sheet and it also lists A. atrovirens, so apparently they are selling it, or at least they think so. :?

Thoughts? Do either of these look the part to anyone?

Smooth (both sides):
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Scabrous (both sides):
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Some close up shots of marginals on the first (smooth) plant:
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MJP
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#2

Post by MJP »

Those attractive green agaves look like they belong to the assemblage of False salmianas.
My first impression is that they look like 'Green Goblet' - an attractive introduction from Yucca Do many years ago.
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#3

Post by KLC »

Well it appears they had selected the most eye popping individual from a flat of seedlings and sent it to the TC lab for duplication. This probably happened 5 to 8 years ago or longer and just now have 5g sized plants for sale. Gentry described them as non offsetting, but from how I understand it TC plants do some odd things. Those plants in your photos could be any number of things given how time after time it has been demonstrated that agaves have huge variability from plant to plant.

So very little is known about them, it's not likely anyone would challenge what the tag says. It wouldn't be the first time agaves were misidentified. I personally wouldn't use something I saw from RSN as the benchmark for the standard for a species. Greg's nursery, yes, but not RSN. The plants that I grew from seed all kind of loosely looked like the ones in the OP.

Those are attractive plants indeed though, they will definitely bring many years of enjoyment to the gardens they end up in. In the end that's what this is all about anyways right?
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#4

Post by DesertDweller »

Appreciate the replies. I can't find any information or even stock photos from RSN or RTT at the moment, but if anyone picks up the phones on Monday, I'll see what more I can find out about what they are selling as A. atrovirens.
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#5

Post by Gee.S »

I don't know that this adds anything useful to the discussion, but the plant pictured does not look like a Heimiflorae Agave. It looks very much like a Salmianae Agave.

BTW, Arid Lands has A. atrovirens.
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"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#6

Post by KLC »

Is...is it....it is! A. salmiana is making A. atrovirens pups in the garden. Nature works in mysterious ways.

:lol:
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#7

Post by DesertDweller »

KLC wrote:Is...is it....it is! A. salmiana is making A. atrovirens pups in the garden. Nature works in mysterious ways.

:lol:
:roll:
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#8

Post by MJP »

For comparison, Agave 'Green Goblet' with a distant pup.
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#9

Post by MJP »

The plants on the first photos should be compared to the Agave atrovirens in the thread "Sunny Arizona".
To my eye the leaf margins and tooth patterns are quite different. The pants above have a mammillate margin whereas the Agave atrovirens in the Sunny Arizona thread has a straight-ish margin interrupted by teeth not set out on mammillate protrusions/undulations.
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#10

Post by KLC »

I have/had a bunch of 'Green Goblet'. It is a different beast completely. Similar looking but different.
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#11

Post by Gee.S »

I don't know much about these plants, but do know one thing. Had Gentry come across a Salmianae-like Agave with Heimiflorae bloom characteristics, he would have placed it in Heimiflorae.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#12

Post by Spination »

MJP - that is one impressive plant. Great job growing it!
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#13

Post by KLC »

Gee.S wrote:I don't know much about these plants,
That's ok neither do we. :lol:
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#14

Post by DesertDweller »

Found a better shots of the marginals:
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#15

Post by MJP »

The matter of the extra teeth amongst the usual teeth has been something I have been wondering about for a couple of years.

I have seen seedlings (young plants) of different species exhibiting these extra teeth over the past few years (since having had the opportunity to see hundreds and hundreds of seedlings whilst employed at Plant Delights Nursery). I did not expect to find such plants amongst Agave ovatifolia; Agave "salmiana"; and Agave wocomahi - and yet there they were, in some cases gloriously so. I wondered if modern fertilizers might have somehow caused these extra teeth to be manifested, but that would not account for the slightly mammillate margins too (in ovatifolia and "salmiana"). In almost all cases the extra teeth disappeared as the plants grew and produced larger leaves (except in Agave wocomahi where the toothy plants became super toothy wonderful beasts).

Seeing the extra teeth in the "salmiana" plants above makes me wonder if Crenate agave genes have seeped into the gene-pool of other agave Groups - and suspect that this has indeed happened with the ageless assistance of Nectar-sipping bats (Leptonycteris sp.). Okay - just call me the Walter Mitty of agaves.
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#16

Post by DesertDweller »

Okay, so I talked with someone today at Rancho. Evidently the reason for the variability with the two plants I showed in the OP, is that these are not a TC offering but are actually seed grown. I was told that seeds were collected by Jeremy but no detail on precisely where that seed was collected. They took my information and will get back to me, but otherwise said I could reach Jeremy next week when he's back in office, for more details.

I was told several times that "it gets very big" but also that they are limited. I think they said only about 80 of them kicking about in this batch? Anyway, thought it was interesting insight, so wanted to share what I was able to glean.

Will post up some more detail if they call me back.
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#17

Post by Spination »

Sounds like some pretty solid info. If that is Jeremy Spath, I would think he ought to know what the seeds were collected from. That doesn't mean someone didn't make a mistake or mix stuff up, but I put the odds of it at something pretty small. Let us know what further comments Jeremy can offer.
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#18

Post by Azuleja »

I follow JS on instagram and he posts some really beautiful plants.
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#19

Post by KLC »

So now that really opens a can of worms. My seed grown atrovirens had gone down 2 distinct appearance paths, one that was salmiana-ish and one that wasn't. There has been speculation that the salmiana-ish plants that came from my batch of seeds were just that, salmiana. Maybe there is more to it than that.

Captive raised agaves really do some weird things. The offsetting is kind of throwing me off with the plants in the OP, this species was described as non offsetting IIRC. However, I have a bunch of 1g seed grown ovatifolia with offsets in the pots. Go figure that one out.
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#20

Post by DesertDweller »

So a few more pics of the other purported A. atrovirens, from the same nursery. They moved it to a better spot, so I took a few pictures of it side by side with some more or less run-of-the-mill A. salmiana for reference.

Thoughts?
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#21

Post by DesertDweller »

Okay, got some updates to share.

I did hear back from Jeremy Spath and he indicated that the seed source for this batch was Rare Palm Seeds (RPS). Additionally, while labeled as A. atrovirens by whomever collected it for RPS, Jeremy was more inclined to believe they were A. salmiana hybrids of some sort. Hybrids with what, he did not speculate.

Second time now that I hear about A. atrovirens seed batches germinating apparently A. salmiana-ish plants. Makes me wonder, do they grow close enough together in habitat that this kind of a crossing would be common? Might explain a few things if so.

That's about all the info I was able to glean. Hope it is helpful! :U
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#22

Post by Paul S »

They don't grow together in habitat - at least I haven't seen them together - but they are cultivated together. In fact Agave atrovirens var mirabilis isn't known from the wild, only cultivated plants at a small place called Las Vigas near Xalapa where it shares fence duties with A. salmiana. I did wonder this very thing out loud in a previous discussion. Possibly hybrid, if flowering period overlaps, or just mistaken ID when collecting seed.
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#23

Post by DesertDweller »

Thanks Paul, was hoping you'd chime in and help make some sense of this. Too bad there isn't better information on the purported collection site to confirm. They are neat looking plants, whatever they are.
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#24

Post by Stone Jaguar »

One of the drawbacks to wild-collected seed from origins that prohibit the export of wild-collected seed is that viability can be poor and reliable accession data is usually lacking. I think Paul’s observations are very suggestive that mixed captive plants may have produced this result. The fact that RSN is marketing them as true atrovirens says more about that nursery than about rarepalmseeds.com.

Toby Spanner provides a very valuable and under-appreciated service, but he is as vulnerable to unlicensed collectors’ screwups and skullduggery as anyone. I broke with several years of ignoring his offerings until last summer when I broke down and bought some seed of a few relatively recently described agaves. I have to admit to being pleasantly surprised that most of it germinated at a surprisingly high rate and that the resulting offspring look like they might be properly ID’d. Two very desirable spp., oddly enough and even though they were “new” listings on the site, were complete zeros...
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Re: RSN now selling atrovirens?

#25

Post by Gee.S »

^ Yes, there is a whole lot of reliance on faith in the seed biz. A guy like Toby can stick with trusted sources and offer same old, same old, or stick his neck out once and a while and expand his horizons.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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