Lophantha Hybrid??

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funkychicken85
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Lophantha Hybrid??

#1

Post by funkychicken85 »

Hello everyone, is this agave some sort of Lophantha Hybrid?
Compact growth, already offsetting, aggressive marginal teeth!
I’ve got quite a few other agaves in the marginatae group but this one is unique.
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#2

Post by Gee.S »

Looks like the unofficial nomen A. heteracantha, basically an over-spined A. lophantha.
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"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#3

Post by funkychicken85 »

Thanks for the reply Gee.s, I agree with you on the spination it is more pronounced that the average Lophantha which leads me to think of A. heteracantha, however..... this agave here is what’s I was calling A. Heteracantha and while the spination is similar the colour is all different
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A. heteracantha.
A. heteracantha.
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A. heteracantha
A. heteracantha
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#4

Post by Gee.S »

Yes maybe. Another overspined lophantha, but that is clearly lophantha, which is to say the marginals and teats, oversized as they are, scream lophantha. The first pic, not so much...
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#5

Post by Stone Jaguar »

No real opinion as to a good name, but it is quite like what I imagine lophantha x horrida would look like, i.e. vaguely in the zipcode of some striped ghiesbreghtii I’ve seen.
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#6

Post by funkychicken85 »

So in your opinion Gee.s would you say the Agave in the OP is closer to what you would call heteracantha and the other agave is simply a heavy spined Lophantha?
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#7

Post by Gee.S »

No, I'm good either way on that score. A. heteracantha is a synonym for A. lophantha.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#8

Post by Paul S »

Gee.S wrote:A. heteracantha is a synonym for A. lophantha.
Not so in Europe. I post this link again. Maybe someone will read it one day!
Agave heteracantha
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#9

Post by Gee.S »

Read it years ago. It isn't a formal description. From the article:
3. A. heteracantha Zucc., Acad. Caes. Leop. Carol. 1833 (?), 16(2):675.
This name is a synonym A. lophantha (Gentry,1982).
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#10

Post by Stone Jaguar »

FYI, the Plant List (Kew) as well as Tropicos (MOBOT) show both A. lophantha and A. heteracantha as synonyms of A. univittata Haw. and, thus, the former two are rejected names.

While I respectfully disagree with both these authorities on nomenclature on occasion over the "right" names of some more or less obscure tropical plants, I think most botanists are inclined to give Kew the final word on proper contemporary usage.
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#11

Post by Spination »

And more previous discussion and photos on this subject
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7511&p=33797" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#12

Post by Paul S »

As far as I am aware the magazine 'Succulenta', where the article was first published, is a valid publication for nomenclature.

The Kew list is good as far as it goes but is nothing more than someone following a paper trail until he comes to the first valid published name. Takes no account of the actual plants. I know the chap who is doing it, as it happens. Lovely fella.
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#13

Post by abborean »

the plant in the OP has leaves too deeply guttered to look like lophantha to me. That striping on the back of the leaves may be indicative of lechugilla genes in the mix.
I read you Paul! If a plant is distinctive it deserves a name. How the naming is done is beyond my taxonomic expertise. Entire groups of plant fanciers accept or reject validly published names (like univittata recently) and there are ongoing changes in nomenclature as well. For me I prefer not to say what is right or wrong. Guess I use the last name that I've heard for any given plant. I still have celsi, macroculmis and scabra in my head but try not to slip up here!
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#14

Post by Stone Jaguar »

The fact that a name has been published in a high circulation paper that meets current guidelines in terms of numbers neither validates nor negates a binomial's bona fides in the long run. Names are generally sunk during the course of a revision by an authority on the genus or species group. In this case, Gentry's (1982) monograph takes a back seat to The "Flora of North America" editorial review committee's treatment of the family (2002).

From a brief perusal of the dates, someone is working under the assumption that these three taxa are just representatives of the same critter, in which case, that would be the first validly-published name, A. univitatta Haworth 1831, since Schiede's 1829 lophantha is considered a nomen nudum and presumably lacks a description, and Zuccarini's heteracantha was published later in 1833.

I can assure you that the Kew-MOBOT collaborative "The Plant List" is considered by global botanists as something more than just the efforts of some well-meaning folks following paper trails back to the bowels of archival descriptions. They very much incorporate the current views of specialists working on plant taxonomy, and are the current gold standard for botanical names. One is, of course, perfectly free to disagree with their calls but should be aware that current approved usage points in a certain direction. Horticultural vernacular, IMO, gets a bit of a pass when usage is longstanding, prevalent and opinions are strong ;^) , so call 'em bananas as far as I am concerned.
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#15

Post by Pituophian »

Paul S wrote:As far as I am aware the magazine 'Succulenta', where the article was first published, is a valid publication for nomenclature.

The Kew list is good as far as it goes but is nothing more than someone following a paper trail until he comes to the first valid published name. Takes no account of the actual plants. I know the chap who is doing it, as it happens. Lovely fella.
I believe what he was referring to was the fact that the paper lacks a formal description with diagnoses. Is that journal peer-reviewed?
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#16

Post by Stone Jaguar »

Where Paul and others may be onto something is IF someone segregated a population that matches the original Zuccarini description for heteracantha and it proves to be a “good” species, it can be re-elevated to species status. For a recent example of this, see the well-buttressed revision of Agave victoriae-reginae wherein the King Ferdinand plants were removed from synonymy Gentry placed them in and retypified under the name that had priority over fernandi~regis (i.e. nickelsiae). The paper Paul linked to, while quite interesting, ignores the current accepted taxonomic status of the plant and dwells a bit on the in-between part of the story.

What does seem clear (to me) after some brief sleuthing today is that lophantha is the true orphan. Gentry, while sinking a number of names into synonymy with that name notes that Schiede, in naming the plant, “...gave no description...” but that Kunth did ammend the description to include a very brief Latin diagnosis in 1850 - 19 years after Haworth validly described and published univittata. This seems to conclusively archive Agave lophantha as an illegitimate name...one wonders why Gentry took a different view in his monograph? Of course, convincing agavephiles to abandon this name for univittata again may prove to be a tough row to hoe.

Cultivated plant forms are often selected for traits that make them “unique” or “showy” to collectors. Unless provenance is known with fair certainty, we argue about their IDs at our own peril.
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#17

Post by Gee.S »

For better or worse, the name lophantha is deeply ingrained in Agave culture, at least here in the US. I know A. univittata is correct (see Agavaceae Gallery), but I'm happy to follow the lead in any discussion, be it A. univittata or A. lophantha.

OTOH, A. heteracantha, far as I can ascertain, is currently considered an invalid nomen. I do find the name useful however, and have no objection to its use.
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"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#18

Post by Stone Jaguar »

^^^^^^ Yes, my point exactly about some growers having strong opinions about abandoning long-used names. Where these are used to identify certain forms in cultivation, they are often very useful (like King Ferdinand agaves when they were considered vic-regs)
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#19

Post by Melt in the Sun »

The plant in the OP looks very much like 'Kelly's Monster' to me. I don't see Agavemonger in here anywhere, perhaps he can confirm/deny this since my plants came from him...
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#20

Post by Gee.S »

Paul S wrote:
Gee.S wrote:A. heteracantha is a synonym for A. lophantha.
Not so in Europe. I post this link again. Maybe someone will read it one day!
Agave heteracantha
I was conducting a little research and found this in a paper from 1938 about Native Agave use:
Likewise, references to the Papago obtaining netting material from A. heteracantha are peculiar since the native home of A. heteracantha Zucc., (now known as A. lophantha Schiede) is Vera Cruz (122:142; 79:135; 136:136). As a matter of fact, A. lechuguilla of western Texas and southward furnishes the greater part of the ixtle or lechuguilla fiber usually ascribed to A. heteracantha; in fact most of what is called A. heteracantha is really A. lechuguilla (145:1,237). Similarly, some archaeological specimens of mescal are quite difficult to identify as to species. In view of the above it will be necessary to discuss the utilization of Agave more or less in a generic sense, although species will be given where this can be done with accuracy.
Not sure what to make of it, but found it interesting.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#21

Post by Paul S »

Gee.S wrote: Not sure what to make of it, but found it interesting.
Some sort of rough fabric, i would think....
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#22

Post by agavedave »

I have both of those, the only behavioural difference that I have seen is that the one that I have labelled here as Heteracantha offsets like crazy when small, less so now that it is 60cm diameter. The one that I have labelled Lophantha has only ever put up 1 or less pups a year. This is of course pot grown so may behave differently in open ground.

The one labelled heteracantha is still doing the rounds in the uk as Xylonacantha, though from what I believe, xylonacantha is a bit more gnarly and has fewer more open leaves.

Best regards
Dave

Edit:
There is a good article here that make a case for retaining the name heteracantha.
http://www.agaves.nl/Articles/E_xylonacantha.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At least when someone mentions heteracantha we know what they mean.
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Lophantha
Lophantha
u16-13-C600.jpg (176.13 KiB) Viewed 2258 times
Heteracantha
Heteracantha
heteracantha-C600.jpg (125.24 KiB) Viewed 2258 times
Lophantha
Lophantha
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Heteracantha
Heteracantha
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#23

Post by MJP »

Stone Jaguar wrote:Where Paul and others may be onto something is IF someone segregated a population that matches the original Zuccarini description for heteracantha and it proves to be a “good” species, it can be re-elevated to species status. For a recent example of this, see the well-buttressed revision of Agave victoriae-reginae wherein the King Ferdinand plants were removed from synonymy Gentry placed them in and retypified under the name that had priority over fernandi~regis (i.e. nickelsiae). The paper Paul linked to, while quite interesting, ignores the current accepted taxonomic status of the plant and dwells a bit on the in-between part of the story.

What does seem clear (to me) after some brief sleuthing today is that lophantha is the true orphan. Gentry, while sinking a number of names into synonymy with that name notes that Schiede, in naming the plant, “...gave no description...” but that Kunth did ammend the description to include a very brief Latin diagnosis in 1850 - 19 years after Haworth validly described and published univittata. This seems to conclusively archive Agave lophantha as an illegitimate name...one wonders why Gentry took a different view in his monograph? Of course, convincing agavephiles to abandon this name for univittata again may prove to be a tough row to hoe.

Cultivated plant forms are often selected for traits that make them “unique” or “showy” to collectors. Unless provenance is known with fair certainty, we argue about their IDs at our own peril.
To the highlighted and underlined portion of the quote above, the answer can be found on page 160 of Agave s of Continental North America.

To save the reader some time in finding their copy and turning the pages, I provide the quote below.

"The identity of the name lophantha did not become certain until it was recollected at the type locality by Trelease in 1905 and Gentry in 1963. Fortunately Schiede, when he named the plant, stated that it came from the "malpais de Naulinco" in Veracruz. When I relocated the topotypic plants in 1963, I had to look for the old mule trail from Xalapa to Naulinco (also spelled Naulingo), which more or less parallels the modern auto road at lower elevations along the forested slopes of the Huatusco Region."

Gentry had a m.o. of honoring old names where he could. In this instance it was clear to him, with the description and site evidence provided by Schiede, that Schiede's Agave lophantha had been located. Schiede may not have been around to appreciate that his work was honored. And now neither he nor Trelease nor Gentry are around to continue the chivalrous code.
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#24

Post by agavegreg »

I think part of the problem lies in the fact that the name Agave heteracantha was first used by Zucc. in 1833, at which time a detailed description based on habitat plants was not the norm, instead many agaves described in that time period were from plants sent to Europe from Mexico and grown in pots. It then was used by other authors, Leopold, Salm-Dyck Kunth, and Jacobi to name four. And then, in 1915 Berger described Agave heteracantha in his monograph Die Agaven. The article that Paul posted a link to refers to Agave heteracantha Berger while listing three other instances of the name used earlier. Now, we know the rule of priority would render all other "descriptions" by other authors invalid for the name Agave heteracantha because a name can only be used once at the same rank. Therefore, if Agave heteracantha Zucc. is identical to Agave lophantha/univittata, then the name becomes a synonym and anything different (for example Berger's plant) would need a name other than A. heteracantha.

I skimmed the article by Wim, et. al. and saw only a brief reference to Agave lophantha/univittata. It appears the authors were more concerned with the distinction between Agave heteracantha Berger and Agave xylonacantha. That leads me to believe that Agave heteracantha Zucc. falls within Agave lophantha/univittata while Agave heteracnatha Berger is closer to Agave xylonacantha. If that is the case, then Agave heteracantha Berger needs to be re-evaluated to see if it is distinct, and if so it would need a new name.

My friend Gerhard Bock translated Berger's key to the section Pericamptagave (most of the Marginatae) and I see that A. lophantha and A. univittata are maintained as separate species and both diverge early on in the key from Agave heteracantha as defined by Berger.

Looks like a job for Agave Man!

Oh yeah, the plant in the opening post looks very much like the plant pictured in Wim's article as Agave heteracantha Berger.
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Re: Lophantha Hybrid??

#25

Post by funkychicken85 »

Thanks everyone for your comments and insight!
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