Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybrids

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Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybrids

#1

Post by MJP »

When three of my Agave ovatifolia bloomed in 2016 they were accompanied in flower by my Agave "salmiana" 'Saltillo'.
'Saltillo' had survived several very cold winters (2014 we hit 7F, -14C twice). 'Saltillo' had outer leaves damage, but remained surprisingly intact.
From pollen of 'Saltillo' placed on the Agave ovatifolia, few seeds were viable. Still, a few seedlings were produced (through the efforts of PDN's excellent staff), and of these few I am blessed to have two. My hope is that they will have the size and shape of Agave salmiana with the hardiness of Agave ovatifolia.
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two Agave ovatifolia x 'Saltillo'
two Agave ovatifolia x 'Saltillo'
ovat x saltillo - 1.jpg (65.84 KiB) Viewed 2192 times
Yours truly and three Agave ovatifolia bloom stalks.
Yours truly and three Agave ovatifolia bloom stalks.
ovat - 1 (2).jpg (112.24 KiB) Viewed 2192 times
Agave ovatifolia (foreground); Agave 'Saltillo' (background)
Agave ovatifolia (foreground); Agave 'Saltillo' (background)
saltillo - 1.jpg (154.12 KiB) Viewed 2192 times
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#2

Post by Azuleja »

What a beautiful flower show. I hope your seedlings perform just as you want.
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#3

Post by MJP »

When the three Agave ovatifolia bloomed, I had the opportunity to produce other hybrids, and Tony Avent (and Zac Hill and Jeremy Schmidt) of Plant Delights Nursery provided me pollen from the agaves there. Besides the Agave flexispina pollen they provided that resulted in Agave ovatifolia x felxispina 'Blue Rapture', I received pollen from PDN's hybrid: Agave lophantha x "salmiana" 'Logan Calhoun'. This pollen placed on my Agave ovatifolia produced copious seeds, but with low viability. However, the reverse cross produced copious seeds that were quite viable, and these are now for sale by PDN as Agave "amourifolia" 'Twisted Tongue'. Again, I am fortunate to have a few examples of each direction of the cross, and they are in the photo below. My two plants of Agave ovatifolia x (lophantha x 'Logan Calhoun') do not have marked central stripes, but a few that Tony kept very much so do. Keeping that in mind, you will see how similar the seedlings of both seed batches are.

If you allow these numbers to represent the agave hybrids in the photo below:
1 2 3

4 5 6

then:
1, 4, 6 are [Agave (lophantha x 'Logan Calhoun') x ovatifolia] 'Twisted Tongue'
2, 3 are Agave ovatifolia x (lophantha x 'Logan Calhoun')
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hybrids
hybrids
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#4

Post by MJP »

Here is a fourth 'Twisted Tongue' that is considerably larger than its siblings.
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a larger Agave "amourifolia" 'Twisted Tongue'
a larger Agave "amourifolia" 'Twisted Tongue'
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#5

Post by MJP »

By the way, I planted out one Agave "amourifolia" 'Twisted Tongue' last year (2017) and did not protect it through this brutal winter. Amazingly, it is untouched by the cold. However, a slug (or snail) was partial to nibbling one of its leaves. (will have to go out in the garden Sunday and get a photo of this one).
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#6

Post by MJP »

Azuleja wrote:What a beautiful flower show. I hope your seedlings perform just as you want.
Thanks for that. It was very enjoyable.

The Agave ovatifolia blooms produced a strong ripe melon odor that was easily detected far away (downwind). I wonder if n the wild this is meant to attract Leptonycteris bats? I wonder too if other Agaves that these bats pollinate also have flowers that smell of ripe fruit? Two other Agave ovatifolia that bloomed (at JC Raulston Arboretum and in a private Raleigh garden) produced the same ripe melon fragrance. The odor was concentrated in the nectar - as I discovered when nectar was decanted all over my clothes when I caught a falling umbel clipped-off to collect pollen).

Oh, and I noticed that the bracts (on the bloom stalk) of Agave ovatifolia are toothed.
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#7

Post by Bananaguy »

Mike that was a great read and enjoyed the pics as always!
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#8

Post by SC FM »

Wow, the pictures of your garden are fabulous! Those Agave are perfectly grown. You are a master grower of Agave. Great the hybridization you are doing there. IT sounds like great fun to work with Tony Avent as well. Keep up the great work.
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#9

Post by MJP »

SC FM wrote:Wow, the pictures of your garden are fabulous! Those Agave are perfectly grown. You are a master grower of Agave. Great the hybridization you are doing there. IT sounds like great fun to work with Tony Avent as well. Keep up the great work.
Tony must be credited in many ways for the popularity of agaves in this region, and for developing new agaves for horticulture. The Agave ovatifolia that flowered were purchased from PDN as pint-sized plants. All of the pollen for hybridization (except from my 'Saltillo') came from PDN. So Tony is more than a little responsible for the possibility of, the creation of, and the production of the new agave hybrids. I am very fortunate to have the opportunity to participate, and in getting a little credit in doing so. Yes, it is wonderful. In the realm of agave horticulture, the future is wide open. The glowing horizon beckons.
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#10

Post by SC FM »

Yes, Tony has really gotten in to it. I had grown Agave for many years,in Kentucky I grew Agave Utahensis nevadensis and Agave parryi for years there under a bay window where it was dry. I really got into it after I moved to SC. I ordered many Agave and other Xerics from Yucca Do Nursery years ago, grew from seed, or pups someone would give me. . I visited Tony's garden maybe 10 years ago now and when I saw what he was growing I was convinced to grow many more varieties here. I am inato growing S. African plants as well. I just ordered several from High Country in Santa FE. They have good quality as well. The Botanical Garden in Denver has been experimenting with hardy S. African Succulents for years and have discovered many that are very hardy form the colder high elevations of S africa Namibia and such.
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#11

Post by MJP »

The barrel cacti of Uruguay and Argentina caught my attention many years ago, and right many species (and hybrids made here) have been subjected to the rigors of the local climate in my garden. This cold winter fairly well cleared the slate, leaving only the hardiest species and individuals. Fortunately, these were subjected to cross-pollination last year, and already the prospective hybrids are growing well in the greenhouse.

Your interest in South African species is shared. I have tried several kinds of South African succulents in my garden, grown from seed from Mesa Garden. Once again, this winter felled many of them, however, the survivors should make good long-term garden plants. This year I am growing numerous Titanopsis calcarea from seed (already germinated). This species had some survivors in the garden, so I hope the new additions will perform just as well (hoping for brightly colored leaves too).

You are fortunate to have a slightly warmer climate (USDA hardiness zone) in South Carolina. Those few degrees make a difference. It sure sounds like you know what you are doing (with Agaves and other succulent genera) and that you make the most of it, which is absolutely fabulous.
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#12

Post by SC FM »

IMG_1909.JPG
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Thanks. I have Trichocereus(now called Echinopsis)huasca and some Echinopsis oxygona which have proven very hardy for me. I hope to try a Trichocereus terscheki someday. They are hard to find and so far are too expensive for my taste. IF I can grow huasca successfully then the Argentine Saguaro,


Thanks. I grow Trichocereus huasca and Echinopsis oxygona hybrid here. IF huasc is hardy then I want to try Tricho. terscheki, the Argentine Saguaro. I want an Agave albopilosa when the prices come down some. My Agave victoriae-reginiae, I have 3 do well for me here, and the albopilosa comes form the same area. My dream would be to take a trip to Nuevo Leon and the Monteray area and visit Huasteca Canyon and see albopilosa, bracteosa and victoriae-reginiae in habitats. Here is a picture of some of my nicest Agave and Tricho. I put more pictures of other Agave up but they came back sideways and I just didn't go to the trouble of making them vertical, but you can see that you can grow Agave and Tricho in Upstate SC..
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IMG_1920.JPG (176.67 KiB) Viewed 2099 times
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#13

Post by abborean »

wow! is this before or after the recent polar weather? My place looks like hell from it.
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#14

Post by SC FM »

This was taken last summer. Currently the A, parryi, schidigera, and victoriae look the same a in picture, zero damage, but the Lophantha 'Quadricolor got some browning tips on some of the leaves. My A. multifilifera, ovatafolia, montana, lechuguilla, 'Sharkskin', Parryi truncata Huntington form, and toumeyana all got zero damage. I have grown successfully other Agave heer but have removed some due to getting too large and taking over bed or pupping so profusely that they were a nuisance.
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#15

Post by abborean »

my plants all have damage and I'm in 8a near the coast. You obviously have superior cultural practices including good drainage. Simpsonville looks like 7b or 8a. Even my covered plants have some damage but most not much.
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#16

Post by MJP »

SC FM, the purity and form of your garden puts mine to shame. Yours is sublimity itself. Well done!

My succulent garden was a scene of devastation after the long deep cold of January.

Even before that, however, it did not look as good as yours.
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#17

Post by SC FM »

Thanks for the praise. Simpsonville, is in 7b and 8a. My house sits basically on the line of both zones. The columnar cacti got no damage but one. The smallest Trichocereus was heavily damaged. I do not know the species. I bought it in a group of cacti at Lowes. IT did not state the species. IT was not huasca , but It may have been damaged because it was so small. Overall my plants all fared well considering the duration of cold and abnormal low temps and abnormal high temps for two weeks at a time.
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#18

Post by Steph115 »

I have a general question about hybridizing - are there pairs of plants that are non-starters for hybridizing? I.e. some that are too genetically dissimilar? And do you generally try to stick with more closely related agave families or is anything fair game? Fascinating work!
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#19

Post by Gee.S »

Unless you start delving into certain Agave × Littaea hybrids that are triploid, or possibly certain Mesoamerican cultivars, such as A. tequilana, A. sisalana, A. fourcroydes, A. angustifolia, etc., there are no ploidy issues to prevent successful hybridization. IOW, avoid Agaves that are already reproductively compromised, and you should be good!
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#20

Post by MJP »

Steph115 wrote:I have a general question about hybridizing - are there pairs of plants that are non-starters for hybridizing? I.e. some that are too genetically dissimilar? And do you generally try to stick with more closely related agave families or is anything fair game? Fascinating work!
Except for the ploidy issues that Ron described, the answer is - as he also said - "no".

However, a cross may work better in one direction than the other.

Species of Litteae Agaves (Groups Filiferae; Marginatae; et cetera) have small flowers in comparison with Agave Agaves (Groups Americanae; Salmianae; Parryanae; et cetera). The Litteae species pollen only has to grow a short pollen tube to reach an ovule (because the Litteae stigma is generally short) whereas the Agave pollen has to grow a long pollen tube to reach an ovule (because the Agave stigma is quite long). As you might expect, when Litteae pollen is placed on an Agave stigma, there seems to be difficulty in the pollen nucleus reaching the distant ovule, and seed set is often very low in these crosses, whereas the opposite cross often has higher seed set. All may not be lost. Amongst the small, apparently barren pods of the Agave plant, one or few small black seeds may be found. These are the hybrid seeds and should be diligently looked for and sown.
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#21

Post by Gee.S »

MJP wrote: However, a cross may work better in one direction than the other.
A. chrysantha × A. toumeyana will not produce the same result as A. toumeyana × A. chrysantha. For reasons that frankly escape me, progeny always favor the seed donor. Also, we've found three different in situ A. schottii hybrids. In each case, A. schottii is the seed donor.

Beats me...
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#22

Post by Steph115 »

Gee.S wrote:
MJP wrote: However, a cross may work better in one direction than the other.
A. chrysantha × A. toumeyana will not produce the same result as A. toumeyana × A. chrysantha. For reasons that frankly escape me, progeny always favor the seed donor. Also, we've found three different in situ A. schottii hybrids. In each case, A. schottii is the seed donor.

Beats me...
All fascinating info, thanks guys. Gee, does you mean other crosses are generally the same regardless of which is seed donor/pollen and chrysantha x toumeyana is an oddball? Or is this just one that you have personal experience with going both ways and most crosses behave this way?
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#23

Post by Gee.S »

Progeny always seem to favor the seed donor, regardless. I was just using an example.
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"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#24

Post by MJP »

Gee.S wrote:Progeny always seem to favor the seed donor, regardless. I was just using an example.
I agree that this is usually the case.

However, oddly, when PDN crossed Agave victoriae-reginae with Agave "salmiana", the seedlings looked like miniature salmianas, not like victoriae-reginae. In all other instances where Agave victoriae-reginae was hybridized, the resultant plants had the strong essence of v-r apparent in their form.
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PDN's v-r x americana ssp. protamerica 'Blue Steel'
PDN's v-r x americana ssp. protamerica 'Blue Steel'
v-r x am protam - 1.jpg (111.14 KiB) Viewed 1960 times
PDN's v-r x "salmiana" 'Belville'
PDN's v-r x "salmiana" 'Belville'
v-r x salmiana - 1.jpg (135.4 KiB) Viewed 1960 times
PDN's v-r x "salmiana" 'Bellville'
PDN's v-r x "salmiana" 'Bellville'
v-r x salmiana - 1 (1).jpg (158.19 KiB) Viewed 1960 times
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Re: Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo; and other hybri

#25

Post by MJP »

In fact, the dominance of the salmiana traits seems also to be exhibited by my Agave ovatifolia x "salmiana" 'Saltillo' seedlings.

I don't know if the topic of dominant traits has been discussed before regarding agaves, but it does seem that Agave salmiana has a dominant form (coherent set of traits: green, recurved leaves) that persists strongly even amongst hybrids.

This is in fact a bonus, for it highlights the fluid nature of relationships amongst the agave.
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