New sans
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- Azuleja
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New sans
This little sans is growing in a spiral. I assume it's just a phase as it becomes a fan? The rosette shaped stolons on my other sans definitely didn't start as spirals.
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Re: New sans
No, I don't and sans seem to be mysterious shape shifters so I don't even know how to guess. Here's the side view.
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Re: New sans
Okay thanks, a vote for S. bella. I guess within a couple of years there will be more clues.
Happily, I see visible growth on my other sans. They certainly aren't going to appreciate my unheated sunroom come winter, but I think I can sneak a heat mat under them.
Happily, I see visible growth on my other sans. They certainly aren't going to appreciate my unheated sunroom come winter, but I think I can sneak a heat mat under them.
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Re: New sans
Your sunroom is probably comparable in size to one of my greenhouse kits. I use an inexpensive Patton "milkhouse" ($20 or so) heater plugged into a surge protector and the thermostat set low... just enough to keep the temps from dropping into the 30s. Also, keeping them dry when it's cold helps. That's pretty much all it takes to carry them over into spring.
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Re: New sans
I was gonna say suffruticosa haha definitely echoes what others have said about the two looking similar. Definitely not differentiable to me at this point. Whatever it is, it's a pretty little plant. Suffruticosa is more fanlike and ballyi more radial? Is that right or am I confused?
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Re: New sans
Ignore the post above! Won't let me delete for some reason.
I was gonna say suffruticosa or s. Ballyi. Definitely not differentiable to me at this point. Not familiar with bells (yet) only Spiny's Bella mutomo. Either way it's a pretty little plant!
I was gonna say suffruticosa or s. Ballyi. Definitely not differentiable to me at this point. Not familiar with bells (yet) only Spiny's Bella mutomo. Either way it's a pretty little plant!
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Re: New sans
I believe ballyi forms small rosettes and suffruticosa is larger and can form either rosettes or fans.
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Re: New sans
I typed these out, hopefully to assist in understanding the differences (and similarities among the group).
Descriptions from The Splendid Sansevieria (Chahinian)
ballyi :
"The plant has stolons, to 18 cm (ca. 7 in), 6 mm (1/4 in) thick, covered by dried sheaths, pale orange in color. It has a short stem that is not erect. The leaves, 6-10, somewhat stiff, can reach 12 cm (5 in) or more, 8 mm (5/16 in) thick. The edges of the channel are acute and reddish. The leaves have a round groove on the adaxial side that can reach to 3/4 of its length. Sometimes the groove is non-existent and the leaf quite cylindrical in shape. In this case the groove is relegated to the bottom just enough to let the newer leaf grow. The dark-green leaves are marked with light-green cross-banding and they end in a spiny tip. Surface of the leaf is rough."
bella:
"This is a sansevieria recently described by I.E. Newton. The plant has been described as "aff. S. suffruticosa" but the leaves are much thicker and have a more conspicuous cross-banding. He also indicates that S. bella has a different geographical distribution, south of the S. suffruticosa. Some leaves, particularly the ones on the plants belonging to the author completely lack a channel. Newton does not mention this. Further, it appears to be a universal rule for all sansevierias that the cross-banding disappears with the darkening of the leaf with age. This plant is no exception. The predominant cross-banding then does not appear to this author to have such relevance. This sansevieria is quite close to S. suffruticosa, indeed, the author of this book thinks that it should have been described as a variety of the latter, the reason being that there are literally scores of plants within both the S. suffruticosa and S. gracilis group that look alike, have smaller or larger leaves, thinner or thicker leaves, longer or shorter channels, have different colors and cross-banding."
suffruticosa (var. suffruticosa):
"A very distinct plant with a stem about 30 cm (1 ft) high covered by the leaf bases and stolons to 25 cm (10 in) long, 13-20 mm (1/2-3/4 in) thick, ascending, covered by acute sheaths to 4 cm (2 1/2" in) long which gradually merge into the lower leaves. Leaves 7-18 to a growth, 15-60 cm ( 1/2 - 2ft) long, 1-2 cm (1/2 - 3/4 in) thick, compressed cylindrica, irregularly pointing in all directions or distichous, sometimes occurring on the same stem, spreading, gradually tapering to a hard and spiny tip. The texture is rough throughout or smooth on the bottom and rough above. The leaves present a channel with acute edges, flattish at the bottom of the leaves and rounded towards the tip, from 1/2 to 1/3 of the length of the leaves. Dark green, cross-banded with grayish green when young and marked with continuous and interrupted longitudinal lines that become impressed when the leaves shrivel."
I did omit the flowering information. It will likely be a while before that comes into play. As can be easily understood, there is variability among each, and similarity. So, it's pretty tough to tell one from another without considerable consideration.
One point which does deserve attention is this point regarding suffruticosa - "...marked with continuous and interrupted longitudinal lines that become impressed when the leaves shrivel."
Here's my S. suffruticosa (Frosty Spears) which illustrates the longitudinal lines, pictured about 2 years ago. I'm not sure which plant yours is, but the lack of longitudinal lines makes me lean away from suffruticosa, and focus on one of the other two. It could just as easily be S. ballyi rather than S. bella. The truth is I made a guess that seemed reasonable at the time. Maybe, because of the lack of cross-banding (but then the author goes on to say he does not believe the cross-banding to have relevance...), the better fit is actually S. ballyi.
Descriptions from The Splendid Sansevieria (Chahinian)
ballyi :
"The plant has stolons, to 18 cm (ca. 7 in), 6 mm (1/4 in) thick, covered by dried sheaths, pale orange in color. It has a short stem that is not erect. The leaves, 6-10, somewhat stiff, can reach 12 cm (5 in) or more, 8 mm (5/16 in) thick. The edges of the channel are acute and reddish. The leaves have a round groove on the adaxial side that can reach to 3/4 of its length. Sometimes the groove is non-existent and the leaf quite cylindrical in shape. In this case the groove is relegated to the bottom just enough to let the newer leaf grow. The dark-green leaves are marked with light-green cross-banding and they end in a spiny tip. Surface of the leaf is rough."
bella:
"This is a sansevieria recently described by I.E. Newton. The plant has been described as "aff. S. suffruticosa" but the leaves are much thicker and have a more conspicuous cross-banding. He also indicates that S. bella has a different geographical distribution, south of the S. suffruticosa. Some leaves, particularly the ones on the plants belonging to the author completely lack a channel. Newton does not mention this. Further, it appears to be a universal rule for all sansevierias that the cross-banding disappears with the darkening of the leaf with age. This plant is no exception. The predominant cross-banding then does not appear to this author to have such relevance. This sansevieria is quite close to S. suffruticosa, indeed, the author of this book thinks that it should have been described as a variety of the latter, the reason being that there are literally scores of plants within both the S. suffruticosa and S. gracilis group that look alike, have smaller or larger leaves, thinner or thicker leaves, longer or shorter channels, have different colors and cross-banding."
suffruticosa (var. suffruticosa):
"A very distinct plant with a stem about 30 cm (1 ft) high covered by the leaf bases and stolons to 25 cm (10 in) long, 13-20 mm (1/2-3/4 in) thick, ascending, covered by acute sheaths to 4 cm (2 1/2" in) long which gradually merge into the lower leaves. Leaves 7-18 to a growth, 15-60 cm ( 1/2 - 2ft) long, 1-2 cm (1/2 - 3/4 in) thick, compressed cylindrica, irregularly pointing in all directions or distichous, sometimes occurring on the same stem, spreading, gradually tapering to a hard and spiny tip. The texture is rough throughout or smooth on the bottom and rough above. The leaves present a channel with acute edges, flattish at the bottom of the leaves and rounded towards the tip, from 1/2 to 1/3 of the length of the leaves. Dark green, cross-banded with grayish green when young and marked with continuous and interrupted longitudinal lines that become impressed when the leaves shrivel."
I did omit the flowering information. It will likely be a while before that comes into play. As can be easily understood, there is variability among each, and similarity. So, it's pretty tough to tell one from another without considerable consideration.
One point which does deserve attention is this point regarding suffruticosa - "...marked with continuous and interrupted longitudinal lines that become impressed when the leaves shrivel."
Here's my S. suffruticosa (Frosty Spears) which illustrates the longitudinal lines, pictured about 2 years ago. I'm not sure which plant yours is, but the lack of longitudinal lines makes me lean away from suffruticosa, and focus on one of the other two. It could just as easily be S. ballyi rather than S. bella. The truth is I made a guess that seemed reasonable at the time. Maybe, because of the lack of cross-banding (but then the author goes on to say he does not believe the cross-banding to have relevance...), the better fit is actually S. ballyi.
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Re: New sans
Dunno how much stock I would place in that final point. I have fair sized suffruticosa and cylindrica side-by-side, and leaves are nearly identical. Only significant point of divergence is growth habit.
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"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: New sans
Thank you, Spiney, for typing out the descriptions. Those are nice reference points to have. Yes, ballyi seems like a possibility at this point too. I do think my plant has longitudinal lines though. The plant is shriveled at the moment, and the lines are sunken. Here's a side by side of my two suffruticosa group plants, showing subtle differences in stolon formation, color and leaf shape. I'm happy at least that they aren't exactly the same. As they mature, hopefully the differences become more pronounced.
Also...I wish I knew how to orient it so as to not interfere with its current growing pattern. I'm thinking the Thai and Indonesian growers must mark their pots or something.
Also...I wish I knew how to orient it so as to not interfere with its current growing pattern. I'm thinking the Thai and Indonesian growers must mark their pots or something.
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Re: New sans
To me, it has some degree of significance, as in each one's description and comparing all three of these (S. cylindrica seems to me a different animal), there's not only the similarity between them, but also a fair amount of hedging within the descriptions ("... group that look alike, have smaller or larger leaves, thinner or thicker leaves, longer or shorter channels, have different colors and cross-banding."). The only point in which there is no hedging or admitted variability lies within the description for S. suffruticosa - "marked with continuous and interrupted longitudinal lines that become impressed when the leaves shrivel." Given that the lines become actual impressions when the plant/leaves are water deficient is an indication that those lines are more than just visual embellishment within the species, but rather of some structural significance. I think if I had a purported S. suffruticosa absent those longitudinals, I'd have to reconsider whether the ID given was in fact correct.Gee.S wrote:Dunno how much stock I would place in that final point. I have fair sized suffruticosa and cylindrica side-by-side, and leaves are nearly identical. Only significant point of divergence is growth habit.
Azul - that last photo makes rather clear that the one on the left is actually S. suffruticosa.
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Re: New sans
Regarding S. cylindrica, there are two significant differences I see on my plant in comparison to the S. suffruticosa types. Cylindrica does not feature a well defined channel, but more of a subtle depression at best. Also, the terminals are weak and flimsy. Careless arms, hands near cylindrica points and the points bend. Suffruticosa type terminals will draw immediate attention and human skin will be the loser in that contest.
The smaller plant is actually a propagate of the damaged leaf on the original rosette. Leaf was rotting, so I cut it off to good strong tissue, and clean material towards the end of the leaf was inserted into medium, eventually forming a new plant. Terminal points are rather weak Not much in the way of any channel on these. Compare with all of the examples pictured previously.
The smaller plant is actually a propagate of the damaged leaf on the original rosette. Leaf was rotting, so I cut it off to good strong tissue, and clean material towards the end of the leaf was inserted into medium, eventually forming a new plant. Terminal points are rather weak Not much in the way of any channel on these. Compare with all of the examples pictured previously.
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Re: New sans
Some S. cylindrica have deep grooves, they aren't all the same. Just like all Agaves aren't all the same.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: New sans
According to Chahinian:
"The channel on this species is relegated to the very bottom of the leaf, leaving a space for the newer leaf to grow, so that the adaxial side of the leaves have virtually no channel."
"The channel on this species is relegated to the very bottom of the leaf, leaving a space for the newer leaf to grow, so that the adaxial side of the leaves have virtually no channel."
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Re: New sans
Maybe this is where those leaf cross section photos become handy. I don't care too much about the ID's on my sans. It seems almost impossible to discern them anyway. I do want to grow one with fans on air stolons though. Those are real knockouts and very alien looking.
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Re: New sans
True, what's in a name? What matters is the appeal of the plant to the grower.
Another point regarding cylindrica... S. ballyi and S. suffruticosa (and S. bella which Chahinian believes should be a variety of S. suffruticosa) have stolons above the soil-line, clearly coming out of the rosette itself (suggesting an affinity or closer relationship between them), while S. cylindrica has below the soil-line stolons (or more correctly then in that case - rhizomes). In the photo of my cylindrica, one can see the subsequent rosettes emanated from below the soil line.
Another point regarding cylindrica... S. ballyi and S. suffruticosa (and S. bella which Chahinian believes should be a variety of S. suffruticosa) have stolons above the soil-line, clearly coming out of the rosette itself (suggesting an affinity or closer relationship between them), while S. cylindrica has below the soil-line stolons (or more correctly then in that case - rhizomes). In the photo of my cylindrica, one can see the subsequent rosettes emanated from below the soil line.
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Re: New sans
Azuleza, I believe what you have is a young stolon of the plant known as Sansevieria suffruticosa 'Lav. 1970'. The stubby leaf tips are a good give away for this plant. Both normal suffruticosa and S. ballyi have tapering leaf ends. Sansevieria bella has somewhat stubby leaf tips as well, but leaves in that species are much thicker.
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Re: New sans
Thank you, Marlon. I thought it might be lav. 1970, in dark green, but it's so small I didn't know what to look for. Cool tip about the leaf ends.