DRACO tree disease?? help

Use this forum to discuss matters relating to Beaucarnea, Calibanus, Cordyline, Dasylirion, Dracaena, Nolina, Sansevieria and related species.

Moderator: Spination

Post Reply
mjanes
Seedling
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:55 pm

DRACO tree disease?? help

#1

Post by mjanes »

Guys. need help identifying what's wrong with my dracos. Started getting a few brown spots and ripped leaves that eventually died. I have noticed some mealies but not that bad. now suddenly all 6 of my dragons have dying inner core leaves. help. I have sprayed miticide and systemic imidacloprid. not sure if damage is mite or fungus? I dont think there's rot. I have been watering 1 per week cause it's been hot. All are field dug and transplanted roughly 4 months ago.
Attachments
20190820_213419.jpg
20190820_213419.jpg (74.24 KiB) Viewed 5150 times
20190820_213310.jpg
20190820_213310.jpg (55.85 KiB) Viewed 5150 times
20190806_170757.jpg
20190806_170757.jpg (53.24 KiB) Viewed 5151 times
20190806_181111.jpg
20190806_181111.jpg (107.02 KiB) Viewed 5151 times
20190820_185439.jpg
20190820_185439.jpg (103.29 KiB) Viewed 5151 times
20190820_185508.jpg
20190820_185508.jpg (63.09 KiB) Viewed 5151 times
20190820_185726.jpg
20190820_185726.jpg (111.48 KiB) Viewed 5152 times
20190820_185621.jpg
20190820_185621.jpg (93.55 KiB) Viewed 5152 times
20190820_185747.jpg
20190820_185747.jpg (133.45 KiB) Viewed 5152 times
20190820_185902.jpg
20190820_185902.jpg (68.79 KiB) Viewed 5152 times
20190820_185526.jpg
20190820_185526.jpg (101.79 KiB) Viewed 5152 times
20190820_185439.jpg
20190820_185439.jpg (103.29 KiB) Viewed 5152 times
Stan
Ready to Bolt
Posts: 5688
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:58 pm
Location: Hayward ca/SF bay area
USDA Zone: 10a

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#2

Post by Stan »

Once a week??? For field dug plants in full sun? You need to start making it three times a week a good soaking.
Hayward Ca. 75-80f summers,60f winters.
mjanes
Seedling
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:55 pm

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#3

Post by mjanes »

really?? I was told by a couple growers dont water much at all. like once a month. Good Earth, escondido has a ton. Western cactus. escondido commented similar. dracos are prone to rot. that's been told to me by many. this issue doesn't seem to be due to lack of water u think? thanks for comments in advance.
User avatar
Spination
Ready to Bolt
Posts: 5266
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:06 am
Location: Sonoma, Ca.

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#4

Post by Spination »

I don't think watering is the issue, and as far as I recall, I seem to remember reading in habitat these can be quite xeric. I just googled and found this brief comment:
"Its hardiness and will to survive make it the perfect plant for our drought stricken lands and worthy of the title ‘the ultimate in architectural planting’."

Looking at your photos, it's the 3rd one that interests me. On the underside of the leaves, I'm seeing those tiny white powder puffs and leaf damage that reminds me of mealy bug activity. I'd spray them all, especially getting the pesticide into all those crevices where they can hide and see if that doesn't help the situation.
User avatar
mcvansoest
Moderator
Posts: 2985
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:22 pm
Location: Tempe, Arizona, USA ie. Low Desert & Urban Heat Island
USDA Zone: 9a/b
Contact:

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#5

Post by mcvansoest »

I agree with spination on what looks like evidence for mealy bug activity, but it seems you noticed that yourself as well.

However, in the same photo the horizontal brown edged tear reminds me of a wasting disease that affected a few of my large Agave weberis at my previous place. It would in mild cases looks like brown spots that would weep and then dry out. In worse situations it would get these horizontal 'tears' that would in extreme situations completely 'eat' through the central core. I never found out what it was nor how to cure it. I suspect that overhead watering during humid conditions was definitely what helped it along - as it almost always developed during our monsoon season or right after periods of heavy rainfall. I used fungicide, pesticide, antibacterial products, miticide and what not on it, nothing seemed to deal with it. I had two plants recover from a full on eaten through the core situation only for each to succumb to the same affliction a few years later as it happened again but this time so deep in the core that there was no common back from that. Several other weberis got the minor version which only led to bad looking spots.

As far as I can tell, in my yard, it only affected the Agave weberis. None of my other Agaves ever got it. I think it is something bacterial, maybe brought in by an insect or birds or blown in through spores, but the fact that it was so selective in terms of which plants got affected - only large weberis - suggests a pretty targeted delivery so wind blown is probably out.

I moved away from that place leaving those large weberis behind so I never got to a final resolution in terms of what cured it.
It is what it is!
User avatar
Spination
Ready to Bolt
Posts: 5266
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:06 am
Location: Sonoma, Ca.

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#6

Post by Spination »

LOL, that's what I get for only looking at the topic title and the pictures, and not reading the information. So, you already sprayed with chems. I'd continue with follow up sprayings. Mealies are very difficult to get rid of
when entrenched, and those plants have mega crevices for them to hide out. I believe it's entirely possible that all the damage seen could be from mealies feeding. I have found they tend to cluster in groups/areas, rather than spread out evenly over leaf surfaces, so groups could certainly cause the damage on or under the leaf surfaces in areas which then later presents as brown lesions on the leaves.

As mcvan points out, overhead spraying of water in general is not a good idea, and to be avoided as his connection of some sort of fungal rot issue and seasonal monsoon moisture on his A. weberi makes sense.
mjanes
Seedling
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:55 pm

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#7

Post by mjanes »

Thanks.

I never water them overhead. Only time they see water overhead is from me spraying a few times with mini-spray extension. Im in coastal Carlsbad, CA so I have some dew in the morning. Its been hot lately though.

I've tried 2-3 different chems foliar application with spreader sticker as well as the imidacloprid bayer liquid systemic applied to ground for plants to drink. This was before the issue spreading now to many if not all my dracos. they are placed all over my property. 7 in total. Chems havent done crap. I also added Avid to the mix. Still a few mealies but not that many at all. I've inspected. Im getting concerned its fungal. May have to try a mancozeb or propiconazole blast. :o :o
User avatar
Spination
Ready to Bolt
Posts: 5266
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:06 am
Location: Sonoma, Ca.

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#8

Post by Spination »

I hope you can solve it, and blasting them with fungicide is certainly worth a try. Those are really beautiful specimens, hopefully you can get them growing nice again.
mjanes
Seedling
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:55 pm

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#9

Post by mjanes »

thanks Spination. Will keep you posted. Ill report back with status. I'm gonna anti-fungal blast later today after it cools down.
Stan
Ready to Bolt
Posts: 5688
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:58 pm
Location: Hayward ca/SF bay area
USDA Zone: 10a

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#10

Post by Stan »

I've had tree Aloe tongaensis get bad mealys in the crown. It's why when I do water that plant I make sure to blast the axils with my pistol grip sprayer water. But,if you have mealey's- you would see them . I don't see any signs of mealy.
I think once a week watering is the stress you see. To me field grown,means the roots were broken when dug up. Maybe try come soil mycorrhiza..not sure if that's spelled right..but you get me. Along with more water. In 100f heat for the next two months..yes they might survive on once a week..but you might lose one or the crown of leaves.
My 2 cents.
Hayward Ca. 75-80f summers,60f winters.
mjanes
Seedling
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:55 pm

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#11

Post by mjanes »

Nursery manager from which I obtained the plants from put me in touch with Kelly Griffin, the renowned plantsman/cultivator/author at Altman. He knows these plants well to say the least and he came by personally to check em out--cause unknowingly--we are actually close neighbors. He said my dracos are fine and are likely still experiencing transplant shock and that the marks are largely from mechanical damage that allowed some fungal to come up. He echo'd the advice of limiting water. These plants are very xeric and can easily rot. I will apply some anti-fungal and be patient. Had the opportunity to visit his garden after and wow was that an honor. you guys would drool over his dracaena cinnabari he has in his front yard, a thick girthy trunk ~4-5ft tall or so grown from seed. anyways, thanks everyone for quick advice. :))
User avatar
Spination
Ready to Bolt
Posts: 5266
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:06 am
Location: Sonoma, Ca.

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#12

Post by Spination »

Thanks for the update. I was seriously in doubt of the advice of watering several times a week. I water my much smaller plants (3 feet tall or so) than yours frequently, but that's only because I grew them from seed, and they are rather underpotted with dense root systems, so they suck up the water in their relatively small pots much more than if planted out.

What a nice gesture of good will for KG to personally come by, look at your plants, and give you expert advice. I have often heard how gracious he is on a personal basis, and this is one more example of just that.
Stan
Ready to Bolt
Posts: 5688
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:58 pm
Location: Hayward ca/SF bay area
USDA Zone: 10a

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#13

Post by Stan »

Once a week in a month or so period with near triple digit weather?..ok.
These things always look fine..then they are dead. I learned that. But,mine was unrooted. Xanthoria moved one successfully but where she is,once a week sounds right..
I always think of ordering one as they make great large potted plants also. But,I think I've about run out of room for almost anything sizeable. It had to happen one day.
Hayward Ca. 75-80f summers,60f winters.
User avatar
Spination
Ready to Bolt
Posts: 5266
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:06 am
Location: Sonoma, Ca.

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#14

Post by Spination »

These plant live in extremely arid habitat.
Here's a link showing average rainfall on Gran Carnaria
https://www.climatestotravel.com/climat ... lands#rain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
146 mm of rain in the year = 5 3/4", and that's spread out over an average of less than 2 days per month, with zero days of rain May - Aug and 4 days each for Nov and Dec.
As far as temps, the highs range from 70 on the low end to 82 on the high end. The lows range from 59 on the low end to 72 on the high end.
Basically, these plants are well adapted to deal with very sparse watering schedule and not much total rain per year.
If temps are circa 100 F, I'd adjust the frequency upward and if under 50, I'd endeavor to keep the plants dry. I do such with my Aloidendron pillansii for example, going out of my way to cover with plastic on rainy days during the winter to make sure it gets no water at all, because the temps are too low for the soil to dry out quickly enough.

They probably are very slow growing under natural conditions and that doesn't mean a plant can't thrive receiving more generous amount of water, but with such a plant evolved to survive in such xeric conditions, it is most certainly best not to overdo it.

Lastly, assuming a plant was dug up and replanted elsewhere, and assuming it's roots are thus not deep and growing strongly throughout the soil, I tend to water such plants less, not more. The idea is that the diminished root system can only handle so much water anyway, compared to a plant with an extensive root system that can mechanically handle/uptake more water. I know, it sounds counter-intuitive, but that's how I deal with all of my aloes and such. What you don't want is the plant sitting in continually wet soil, and it should be well draining and hopefully able to dry out within 2 days or so. My potted dracos with nearly solid roots in their pots on a warm day can dry out in a single day, so watering every other day is not too much. On the other hand, if I were to water in a bed of soil (not a pot), the soil can stay damp for days and take at least 2 or more days to dry out, even in 80 F weather. Watering such a xeric plant on a 3 a week schedule is definitely asking for rotting issues, in my opinion.... unless it is already very well entrenched into the soil with a massive root system, and care is taken not to flood the area of the plant when watering - in other words, watering a bit conservatively only around the plant so the surrounding soil can also absorb excess moisture.
mjanes
Seedling
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:55 pm

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#15

Post by mjanes »

Yeah, the roots are pretty small. We tried our best to get the biggest root ball as possible. Attached shows 2 of the larger dragons right after dig and loading on trailer. We wrapped trunks with carpet for protection. Thankfully all arrived and transplanted with minimal damage. Took 6 big guys to load, no machine. Luckily we had a bobcat onsite at my house to place.
Attachments
Annotation 2019-08-22 120121.jpg
Annotation 2019-08-22 120121.jpg (117.9 KiB) Viewed 5082 times
User avatar
Spination
Ready to Bolt
Posts: 5266
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:06 am
Location: Sonoma, Ca.

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#16

Post by Spination »

Awesome!
User avatar
Paul S
Ready to Bolt
Posts: 1444
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:44 am
Location: Southest Essex, England

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#17

Post by Paul S »

Spination wrote:These plant live in extremely arid habitat.
Here's a link showing average rainfall on Gran Carnaria
https://www.climatestotravel.com/climat ... lands#rain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
146 mm of rain in the year = 5 3/4", and that's spread out over an average of less than 2 days per month, with zero days of rain May - Aug and 4 days each for Nov and Dec.
As far as temps, the highs range from 70 on the low end to 82 on the high end. The lows range from 59 on the low end to 72 on the high end.
Basically, these plants are well adapted to deal with very sparse watering schedule and not much total rain per year.
If temps are circa 100 F, I'd adjust the frequency upward and if under 50, I'd endeavor to keep the plants dry. I do such with my Aloidendron pillansii for example, going out of my way to cover with plastic on rainy days during the winter to make sure it gets no water at all, because the temps are too low for the soil to dry out quickly enough.

They probably are very slow growing under natural conditions and that doesn't mean a plant can't thrive receiving more generous amount of water, but with such a plant evolved to survive in such xeric conditions, it is most certainly best not to overdo it.
Actually, just looking at facts and figures on the internet can be misleading. I visit the Canary Islands a decent amount - I go to one every winter (but sometimes twice in a year) and always try to find the wild dragon trees. Dracaena draco are naturally found in the slightly wetter (but not wettest) parts of the islands in and around gullies, so the drought is not that extreme where they grow. The largest natural populations of these are to be found on the Canary Island of La Palma, which is further west and wetter than Gran Canaria. The oldest specimen anywhere on the islands is on the north coast of the island of Tenerife which is also fairly wet by comparison (350mm annually). And when you see them being planted as ornamentals in the Canary Islands they are always put on irrigation. Dracaena draco are also endemic to the Azores, which are a group of islands that also make up a part of Macaronesia (as do the Canaries) and that are even further west and wetter. Fairly temperate, too, in terms of temp swings year round.
User avatar
Spination
Ready to Bolt
Posts: 5266
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:06 am
Location: Sonoma, Ca.

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#18

Post by Spination »

I appreciate that information.

When I researched just basic information, I saw that they do live on Gran Canaria (although the ones growing there are supposedly now treated as a separate species - Dracaena tamaranae - based on flower structure), so I figured the rainfall data for Gran Canaria was good enough. Nice to know that they also thrive where rainfall is substantially more (350 mm is 13 3/4" annually which is just over twice what I found given on that website). Still, that's not a lot either as even on the high end of 13-14" annually is considered semi-arid.

Seems like the truth of it is they can grow where rainfall is quite arid ranging to semi-arid, and as you say where they are planted as ornamentals using irrigation (although we don't know the rate of irrigation).
Stan
Ready to Bolt
Posts: 5688
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:58 pm
Location: Hayward ca/SF bay area
USDA Zone: 10a

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#19

Post by Stan »

They..and D.Cinnabari are actually dying out as the Canaries and Socotra are warming and becoming dry to arid. They grow fast in soucal when watered in lawns and what have you.
I guess for me it worked out.Where I planted the dragon tree cutting and where it died in a years time? Is where the Mango tree is. To have both would be better.. :)
Hayward Ca. 75-80f summers,60f winters.
User avatar
Paul S
Ready to Bolt
Posts: 1444
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:44 am
Location: Southest Essex, England

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#20

Post by Paul S »

Spination wrote:I appreciate that information.

When I researched just basic information, I saw that they do live on Gran Canaria (although the ones growing there are supposedly now treated as a separate species - Dracaena tamaranae - based on flower structure), so I figured the rainfall data for Gran Canaria was good enough. Nice to know that they also thrive where rainfall is substantially more (350 mm is 13 3/4" annually which is just over twice what I found given on that website). Still, that's not a lot either as even on the high end of 13-14" annually is considered semi-arid.

Seems like the truth of it is they can grow where rainfall is quite arid ranging to semi-arid, and as you say where they are planted as ornamentals using irrigation (although we don't know the rate of irrigation).
Actually Dracaena tamaranae grows at one or two locations - the rest are D. draco. Someone took a closer look at those on the cliff and realised they were different, the location being so hard to reach explaining why it took so long. Not been myself - my rock climbing skills are nil! Mind you there aren't very many left anywhere nowdays - wild plants are very rare indeed and often have houses that have been subsequently built around them which confuses their 'wild' status.

The Canary Islands are a fascinating archipelago. The islands to the east have a greater influence from the continent of Africa which is just nearby - Lanzarote and Fuerteventura are both hot and dry (and windy - hence the name). The climate gets progressively cooler and wetter as you move west from island to island into the Atlantic. Each island has a cooler wet side, hotter dry side, largely NW vs SE. Add to that the effect of altitude and you get a serious mix of flora going on. The very wet mountainous regions of Gran Canaria and islands to the west have a fascinating predominantly evergreen rain/cloud forest flora. The highest altitude on some of the islands you then move into a pine forest zone and, the tallest still - Mnt Teide on Tenerife is over 3700m, more than 12000ft - you get above the tree line and into a xeric alpine zone within a lava rock moonscape.
User avatar
Meangreen94z
Ready to Bolt
Posts: 4670
Joined: Thu May 31, 2018 2:04 pm
Location: Austin, TX
USDA Zone: 8B

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#21

Post by Meangreen94z »

I have a small Dracaena Draco in a pot exposed to our rains, no problems as of yet. I also have a small Dracaena Cinnabari under a plant light on my porch. I water it once a week.
Austin, Texas
Stan
Ready to Bolt
Posts: 5688
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:58 pm
Location: Hayward ca/SF bay area
USDA Zone: 10a

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#22

Post by Stan »

Where the heck did you get a D.cinnabari?
Hayward Ca. 75-80f summers,60f winters.
User avatar
Spination
Ready to Bolt
Posts: 5266
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:06 am
Location: Sonoma, Ca.

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#23

Post by Spination »

I got mine from Czech Rep. I think Meangreen got his from the same source.
User avatar
Meangreen94z
Ready to Bolt
Posts: 4670
Joined: Thu May 31, 2018 2:04 pm
Location: Austin, TX
USDA Zone: 8B

Re: DRACO tree disease?? help

#24

Post by Meangreen94z »

Yeah, there is a user that randomly pops up with a wave of listings. Occasionally she’ll list Dracaena Cinnabari but even if you don’t win the auction she sends you an offer after the fact. From the way she talked she has quite a few, she recently listed 500 seeds in bulk. I paid her $50 for mine along with the purchase of another item. What I’m now looking for is a Dracaena Serrulata. The only seller I’ve seen on eBay knows it, $500-600 from Thailand.
Austin, Texas
Post Reply