Very Important New Book

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Very Important New Book

#1

Post by Agavemonger »

Check out this amazingly comprehensive and massive Tome, just newly released from Mr. Hochstatter:

http://fhnavajoirt.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Click directly onto the Agave Linne book photograph and scroll through some four hundred pages of 200-proof, distilled Agave pleasure!

An absolute coup from the Guru of Yucca!! D)) :8:

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Re: Very Important New Book

#2

Post by mcvansoest »

The second PDF link (PDF2) downloads a version that is mostly in English.
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Re: Very Important New Book

#3

Post by Gee.S »

I've had this link bookmarked for quite some time now: https://translate.google.com/translate? ... rev=search" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hey Fritz: "Desert Botanic Garden" is in Phoenix, not Tucson. :))
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

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Re: Very Important New Book

#4

Post by Agavemonger »

I find that when I bring up the 2nd link (Look under News for pdf #2) it is still mostly in German. Only the Section descriptions are in English, while the species descriptions are in German. Thijs, are you seeing something different?

You can click on "English" in the Language pull-down box at the top of the downloaded file, but that only changes some of the file.

Ron, when I try to translate the file using your translate program, it says "This file is too large to translate"

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Re: Very Important New Book

#5

Post by Gee.S »

Translates for me fine, and it's a vast improvement. Try to access from Google Translate directly, rather than follow my link.

BTW, there is another incarnation of this work here: http://issuu.com/fhnavajo/docs/agave" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This version features significant taxonomic distinctions from the other, including the addition of section Hodgsoniae for the Arizona domesticates. BTW, I know of a renowned author in the Agave arena who is unhappy with this effort, and another who absolutely should have been consulted, but was not. That may yet occur, since the book seems a work in progress.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Very Important New Book

#6

Post by Agavemonger »

Yes, I have learned over the years that one must be patient with understanding Fritz's material. It takes quite a while to methodically go back and forth through the pages in order to understand the layout of his books. :?

It took me years to figure out everything in the massive compilation of material in the three Yucca books. In the meantime, of course, things have changed somewhat. Yes, there are inconsistencies and minor problems with the work. HOWEVER, the three Yucca books are still, by far, the finest resource available in print on this Genus, and each are seminal accomplishments in their own right. And the quality of the printing and binding on all of Fritz's books is beyond reproach. They are absolutely first-rate! :U These books have led me to a much greater understanding of this genus and it's great aesthetic value in Western horticulture, as well as aiding immensely in leading me to field populations, where Mike and I were recently able to see for ourselves what the indigenous species in Texas actually look like in situ. :8:

Naturally, the Agave work will certainly be highly controversial among the cognoscenti! :shock: I would, however, wait a little while (until, like Great Texas Barbecue, the entire work has had some serious rest time to completely digest :P ) before being too quick to judge. ::roll:: Fritz is unlikely to have made too many mistakes, as I find his science in the previously mentioned works to have been extremely exacting in both detail and accuracy.

From my perspective, this massive Tome is at the very least a great accomplishment. It will add immensely to our discussions of the Genus, and inevitably to our increasing knowledge of these extremely important plants.

I only hope that someday it is printed in hard copy and in English, so I can get my grubby little pollen-stained hands on one! D)) :cool:
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Re: Very Important New Book

#7

Post by Gee.S »

You may ascribe my reading of A. phillipsiana in Ditepalae in one version, while Hodgsoniae in another, both available from the same website, as a minor inconsistency, but I see it as two incarnations of a work in progress. There is no amount of time and patience that will permit me to reconcile direct contradictions. Mr. Hochstatter would be well advised to consult with leading authorities in the field before publishing. Let's all hope for a productive outcome, but realize there is still much to accomplish before that outcome is achieved.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Very Important New Book

#8

Post by Spination »

It seems quite strange to me - like it might be waking up in a parallel universe where things seem similar, but different.

Without getting into other controversy...I sure would like to know one thing, for a start.

What's up with the names? For example: Agave salmiana Otto Salm-Dyck ssp salmiana Hochstatter, Agave parryi ssp. Truncata (Gentry) Hochstatter.... just for a couple of examples, but similar treatment name-wise peppered throughout the work.
Every subgenus - Example: Agave Series Ditepalae (Gentry) Hochstatter

See what I mean?

No? Well, so....if I publish a book basically researching and consolidating knowledge from the past - other people's prior work and names - I can then just throw my name on everything?

If that's legit, so now my A. parryi Truncata is not anymore? It's A. parryi Truncata Hochstatter? For real? W-T-huh?

Is that what you mean by "an absolute coup", Mr. Monger?

Maybe I'm not seeing the forest for the trees. Maybe I'm being obtuse, but I'm a bit taken aback, and that's just from spending a bit of time on an overview.
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Re: Very Important New Book

#9

Post by Gee.S »

Mr. Hochstatter apparently considers his work definitive.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Very Important New Book

#10

Post by Spination »

Ah, definitive. That fits because I'm definitely confused.
I thought maybe some other word, one with the root ego in it.
I guess I was wrong, because I always thought that one who discovered something new and first published it, was the one who put their name on it, and that was that, unless it was found later that someone else was actually first. Now, someone can just publish something, add their name to the name that was, and that's that. Definitive. Just learned something new. :eek:
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Re: Very Important New Book

#11

Post by mcvansoest »

Monger you are right. After seeing PDF1 in german, I assumed after seeing mostly English on the first bunch of pages that it would be in English, but it is not. I read German well enough to not really need a translator, more the occasional dictionary.
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Re: Very Important New Book

#12

Post by Gee.S »

Spination wrote:Ah, definitive. That fits because I'm definitely confused.
I thought maybe some other word, one with the root ego in it.
I guess I was wrong, because I always thought that one who discovered something new and first published it, was the one who put their name on it, and that was that, unless it was found later that someone else was actually first. Now, someone can just publish something, add their name to the name that was, and that's that. Definitive. Just learned something new. :eek:
Yes, a lifetime of missed opportunities. Welcome to the club.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Very Important New Book

#13

Post by agavegreg »

Spination wrote:It seems quite strange to me - like it might be waking up in a parallel universe where things seem similar, but different.

Without getting into other controversy...I sure would like to know one thing, for a start.

What's up with the names? For example: Agave salmiana Otto Salm-Dyck ssp salmiana Hochstatter, Agave parryi ssp. Truncata (Gentry) Hochstatter.... just for a couple of examples, but similar treatment name-wise peppered throughout the work.
Every subgenus - Example: Agave Series Ditepalae (Gentry) Hochstatter

See what I mean?

No? Well, so....if I publish a book basically researching and consolidating knowledge from the past - other people's prior work and names - I can then just throw my name on everything?

If that's legit, so now my A. parryi Truncata is not anymore? It's A. parryi Truncata Hochstatter? For real? W-T-huh?

Is that what you mean by "an absolute coup", Mr. Monger?

Maybe I'm not seeing the forest for the trees. Maybe I'm being obtuse, but I'm a bit taken aback, and that's just from spending a bit of time on an overview.
I think what Fritz is intending is to change the organization of the genus from the use of the informal rank of "group" to the taxonomically formal rank of section. However, if memory serves me (and I have not really looked at this too much and certainly am not going to spend a lot of time right now) he mixes section and series which is basically the same thing that Berger did in his 1915 monograph on agave. It is strange that Berger (and does Fritz do the same?) would use sektionen for one subgenus and reihen for another. Now, I don't speak German, but believe that sektionen translates to section and reihen translates to series which are two different ranks taxonomically.

As to your A. parryi truncata question, (and again I have not looked at this in quite awhile) is he simply changing rank from vriety to subspecies? If so, then he gets to put his name as the "author" of this change. His name would follow Gentry's name since Gentry was the one to originally describe the variety truncata.

Does that help?
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Re: Very Important New Book

#14

Post by Spination »

Yes, thank you. That give my mind some direction to follow as I ponder it all over.
I guess there are two issues then as you explain.
One, with different treatment - sektionen for one subgenus and reihen for the other. An inconsistency, I gather.
And the other issue, which also seems strange in that, at this point in time, after all the work done by predecessors, that there is a need to change rank from variety to subspecies, if that's what happened, which warrants authorship? If that's the reasoning, it would appear he did that with a number of other species besides parryi as well.
I'm not really qualified to say if it's right or not, especially without giving it much more thought, but from a strictly logical point of view, as inferred previously - no one until now thought these changes appropriate? Just doesn't seem... plausible.
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Re: Very Important New Book

#15

Post by agavegreg »

As I understand current taxonomic ranking, variety and subspecies are now considered to be equal, and some botanists use one while others use the other. When I was in graduate school, 30 years ago, there used to be a distinction between the two ranks with variety being a lower rank than subspecies, but now that is not necessarily the case.

Having said that, in the Agaves of the Peninsula of Baja California paper, Bob Webb and I mixed the two ranks for Agave cerulata, and I was not really on board with that, but could not convince Bob that we should not do that. In any case, when I publish the book on the Agaves of Baja California, I will change that back.

The bigger question with Agave parryi is, do any of the variants warrant a rank below species, or is there simply a huge amount of variation? Having seen Agave parryi var/subsp truncata down on the Sierra Sombrerete on the border between Durango and Zacatecas, I can tell you that there are plants that have the classic look of the form Gentry brought back and planted at the Huntington BG (#'s 12 and 35) (the one I dubbed cv. 'Huntington') as well as plants that look like regular A. parryi (#55) that you might see in central AZ, only larger.

I have not studied Fritz' paper to make any other comments on it yet.
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Re: Very Important New Book

#16

Post by agavegreg »

I just took a look at the page with the sections and series, and am perplexed. Since I don't read German, I can only speculate, but it appears that Fritz actually uses the rank of series needlessly. If that rank were to be used, there should be more than one series under section which does not appear to be the case in his heirarchy. For example, and this is totally made up, Section Striatae consisting of series Striatae and series Strictae. I don't see the point in using the rank series if all species within that particular section belong to the same series.
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Re: Very Important New Book

#17

Post by Gee.S »

From running willy-nilly all across across Arizona, I would conclude that current taxon beneath species level is superficial at best in regard to A. parryi. We have found broad green leafed parryi near Bagdad and blue narrow(er) leafed forms in the Huachuca Mountains. There is a general tendency toward longer, narrower leaves as one heads north from the southern border, but this manifests in the form of percentages, i.e. 30/70 long narrow/short wide at Huachuca to perhaps 80/20 near Sedona, but all forms, including green/blue are present at many pops across the state. Also, the idea that northern couesii plants are smaller than those from southern parryi and/or huachucensis pops doesn't hold up. We have found a couple northern pops of smaller plants, but many couesii are as larger or larger than their southern counterparts.

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A. parryi from Behm Mesa

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A. parryi from the Huachuca Mountains
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Very Important New Book

#18

Post by Agavemonger »

You can also include Agave neomexicana in with that theory. This species morphs into Agave Havardiana as you go south from the Davis Mountains into Big Bend country. I would call the Davis Mountains populations closer to Agave neomexicana then to Agave Havardiana, which is quite distinct in the Chisos range.

On the matter of Mr. Hochstatter, Neophytes might best be very careful of how big are the stones they throw. A couple of years playing pattycake in the field or in a greenhouse does not make one an accomplished scientist; neither does a cursory viewing necessarily give a clear understanding of what Mr. Hochstatter has realized. Regardless of how he has the book organized, it will take a number of years to digest all of the information that he has posted, along with what he is organizing, and how it is organized. From my experience with the organizational "style" of his other books, I believe that the "Hochstatter" references referred to may be nothing more than sample reference plant material that he has filed in a herbarium, not a reclassification of the individual genera. And I certainly don't see a single damn thing that might suggest that the work is considered by the author to be either complete or definitive. The man has spent countless years in the field and has studied the stuff a lot. Give him at least a fair shake!

It would be better to see the work as what it is; a major achievement and a wonderful tool that has been offered to the world COMPLETELY FOR FREE, regardless of what one may think of the organizational status. Or, I suppose, if one can be quite certain that one actually knows so much more than the author, go ahead and diss the work, throw it in the trash, and just be done with it. :frown:

I, for one, will immensely enjoy perusing the massive amount of information available and trying to grasp all the facts and possibilities laid out there. It took me many years and countless re-readings to fully understand what he accomplished with the three-volume Yucca series. My field observations show it to be a seminal accomplishment, and by far the best reference on Yucca I have ever seen. I would postulate that the man has not gone senile, and that the Agave book reflects far more knowledge and precise observations than an initial cursory viewing in a foreign language might suggest.

At the very least, this is certainly not the place to Diss such an amazingly massive accomplishment by one of the foremost students (and highly published authors) of the Agavaceae whom is still quite alive and well on the planet. He is also a contributing member of this forum; I only hope that some of the comments here haven't driven him permanently away! :huh: :U: :P :shock:

Perhaps a little editing might be in order! ::wink::

Sorry to be so rough on ya'all, but I Just had to put my two and a half cents in ::wink:: .

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Re: Very Important New Book

#19

Post by Paul S »

I read a quote, once, that 'taxonomy isn't a science, it is a battlefield'. Everything is based on opinion, and when people have studied for a length of time they will interpret things differently, come to different conclusions and end up with opinions that differ. Part of the territory and is a constant whenever anything new is published.

As far as I am concerned Fritz is to be applauded for even attempting to take this massive task on, let alone get to the point where his thoughts are crystalised enough to publish. I don't agree with all he has written (eg the agave on p.6 isn't Agave salmiana ssp ferox :) ). Then again, I'd be surprised if everyone on here agrees with everything Gentry has written, either. But I do enjoy it very much for what it is, and this is going to be the same. Well done Fritz! English translation version, please!
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Re: Very Important New Book

#20

Post by MJP »

Science is a matter of evidence.
Taxonomy is a matter of opinion based on science.

The tremendous work presented above and given freely to the public view is a windfall of epic proportions.

It is a grand step forward.

Not the last step.

There is no last step.
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Re: Very Important New Book

#21

Post by mcvansoest »

Monger, I am pretty certain that Agavegreg is correct when it comes to how Mr. Hochstatter has been adding his name to certain plants, sections, and series in the book. My dad is a taxonomist, retired and not in the botanical world, and it is common taxonomical practice: when you first describe a species, taxon, etc, make changes to the classification of existing species, taxa, etc. you get to add your name so that people can genuflect when they see you and confirm how awesome you are.... OK just kidding ::wink:: ::wink:: ::wink:: , it serves to provide other workers in the field with a reference frame when discussing the subject matter in subsequent publications or during conferences and does of course allow credit to be assigned to the person publishing it, with in the cut throat world of science funding is quite important.

I think you make valid points, just like Paul, and MJP, and since this is my hobby and not my life's work, I am not going to try and second guess what Mr. Hochstatter has done here with regards to the taxonomic organization of the Agavaceae. However, I do understand how when you are heavily invested in the science of this you might be disappointed at either not being consulted (while other colleagues in the field maybe were) or the direction in which Mr. Hochstatter took some of his work. However, it certainly looks like a very impressive accomplishment to me, did he manage to see all of the plants in habitat, no, but is that a reasonable expectation to have? Did he catch all nuances and details of the intra- and inter-specific variation and introgression? Nope, but again for a tome like this can one reasonably expect that? I think that from the incredible work Ron has done here documenting the broad intra- and inter-species variety of what are a relative small number of Agave species here in Arizona with their super interesting history of early human cultivation and manipulation, that one could easily write several tomes like Mr. Hochstatter's or Gentry's just trying to unravel that alone.

So for me that puts Mr. Hochstatter's work in perspective: It looks like a wonderful 'modernization' of Gentry's seminal work, that by no means is the end point the scientific research into Agaves and their classification (it actually seems a little light on including results from genetics and cladistics, but that might also have made things way more muddled together rather than provide added clarity), but that will definitely be helpful to me when I am messing around with Agaves without the ability to go and visit these plants in habitat. As with Gentry's tome, I just wish there were more pictures, I think Mr. Hochstatter does a really decent job illustrating many of the different Agaves (in color!), but then there are also many where you would really like there to be more pictures. With that respect I feel Greg Starr's Agaves book really stands out, multiple pictures of the same plant in different growing environments and wherever possible with blooms. I realize obtaining and adding the pictures is not trivial, especially if the book is to be printed, but if it is going to be a PDF, then why not be more expansive. I always wish there to be more pictures of plants when not quite all the way mature, which is where most of my plants are in their life cycle...

Anyway, my 2 cents...
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Re: Very Important New Book

#22

Post by Gee.S »

I've just noticed what was done in the book -- the author has apparently abandoned variety completely, in favor of subspecies. So what I first believed were seemingly reckless and unexplained taxon changes are in fact, adherence to a different style. I neither agree nor disagree with this tack, but do find it somewhat more palatable. IMHO, this does not merit hanging one's name on the end of taxon revised in this manner. The work is in desperate need of editing, as well as the addition of a thorough explanation regarding use/disuse of taxonomic nomenclature. As I had suggested earlier, this is clearly a work in progress.

And Monger, you shouldn't get so defensive. This is all fair criticism, and not attributable to organizational style, as you suggested. It is common practice in scientific texts to lay the groundwork explaining methodologies used in early chapters before sinking one's teeth into the meat. The use of Section, Series, and Subgenus interchangeably is another issue perhaps best addressed by a top notch editor, though language/translation might also come into play here.

BTW, this work is not new to some of us, it has been available for many months now.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: Very Important New Book

#23

Post by Spination »

Agavemonger wrote:
Sorry to be so rough on ya'all, but I Just had to put my two and a half cents in ::wink:: .

The Monger
I had one of my typical replies all written out, all I needed was to press "Submit". I held off, and finally just set it aside. In the final analysis, I was just reacting to your overreaction, so I deemed it unimportant when all said and done.

Anyway, I'd say that was more like two dollars and fifty cents. ::wink:: I'm also crediting my estimation that you tossed in all the melodrama COMPLETELY FOR FREE. :))
Just for the record - I gave up playing Pattycake with Agave. The don't play fair! They refuse to retract their spines, so I refuse to play! :))

Anyway, I get it. You're a big fan, but I really don't think that the comments were about dissing the man, as you seem to have perceived. I don't see why folks can't express any thoughts about the information, "positive" or not, without it meaning it's a personal attack, which I'm quite sure was not.
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Re: Very Important New Book

#24

Post by Agavemonger »

I guess the reason I am so sensitive is that professional writing, in the form of printed books, is becoming so rare these days that we are very lucky to have any at all anymore. They have largely been replaced by dummed-down internet versions only available by clearing-house-type digital purveyors at nearly the same price as one would expect to pay for a printed version, if not even more. Or they are photocopies of rare old books that are for sale at three times the amount that one might expect to pay for an original antique copy.

When I was seriously studying Eriophyoid Mites, the finest book ever written on the subject was completely unavailable for purchase, save for a digital copy at $400.00. There were no used copies available, and no library in San Diego, including three major University Libraries, had a copy. There were no used copies available on the internet. I ended up having to check the book out from the University of Nevada at Reno and have it sent down to my local library. My only recourse in obtaining my own hard copy was to take the borrowed book to a photocopy shop and personally photocopy all 800 pages, and then have the book bound. In the end, it only cost me about twenty dollars for the book, but there is something completely vile about the fact that I had to go through so much effort to obtain this critical information. Most people would never go to the trouble. So mites are now eating away at the world because corporate pirates seek to "control" all the information in the world as if it were the stock market.

In the end, the replacement for properly presented printed scientific literature (for most people) has become a literal plethora of chat room type sites where we are reduced to taking the latest dispensations from the currently in vogue plant pontificate-de-jour as our new truths. Maybe I'm just missing something here, but I prefer the old way.

What I will not put up with without serious protest is tearing a major work apart before one has spent an appropriate amount of time properly reviewing a completed and printed copy in a language that they understand. When I was editor of the Palm Journal, I interviewed many people, and reviewed quite a few publications. I posted my observations in an appropriately extensive review, and was always loathe to be overcritical, even if the book was not completely to my liking. I would point out the books faults, but not with a meat cleaver.

In the case of Mr. Hochstatters new work, it might take as long as hundreds of hours to fathom all that he has posted. So if you want to pontificate about something that you neither have the patience to properly review in an appropriate manner nor formally review in an extensive article published in a scientific publication, than don't blame me for being overly sensitive. Perhaps I am just old school, but I can't help often finding myself being completely offended by the "Street Punk" attitude of modern-day bloggers who largely hide behind the invisibility of the internet.

When I first looked at Fritz's books years ago, I was very impressed with the quality of the books, although I had a hard time understanding the format in which they were layed out. I, as an editor, might certainly choose a different way of organizing the material. I had a hard time understanding that a lot of the book was laid out based on Fritz's field studies, including a myriad of field samples which he would methodically number in a unique system which he invented. For instance, Yucca baileyi fh1179.40 Tec Nos Pos, Arizona 1,540 Meters. So if you wanted to know more about the plant, you could reference the original acquisition at the photographic level and if need be, with the author himself. In my case, I would simply go to the area described and in most cases, relatively easily be able to locate the plants.

The unique advantage of Fritz's system, as difficult as it is to initially understand, is in the vast amount of information provided to the serious field researcher, presented by the man in the trenches who is actually trying to fathom the species In Situ.

Having an entire section of photos of "Yucca Friends" and "Yucca Friend's Gardens" mixed into the book might seem hokey to the neophyte, but it helps to lighten-up the serious science of the material. It even becomes somewhat endearing with time!

Yes, I could also have a lot of issues with Mr. Hochstatters work. I would certainly re-organize it differently if I was editing it. But in large part, I find his books among the most well-thought-out and well presented to ever have been published on the subjects discussed, and believe that many years from now, even when science has "moved on" that his material will largely stand the test of time.

I would also point out that Mr. Hochstatter is developing one of the most extensive premier agavaceae data bases on the internet, with massive amounts of material available to the serious student of the Agavaceae, including many different aspects such as dimensions, location data, photographs, etc. He also has C.D.s available with thousands of photographs on them. His website presence is manifold and growing, with several different ways to access his sites on the web. You can enter Agavaceae Mecca right now at this link: http://www.fhnavajo.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; You can also obtain some of Fritz's books at http://www.exoticplantbooks.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And Tom, it wasn't meant as an attack against you. :red: When it comes to books and authors I probably am truly oversensitive! ::roll:: We all need to support this dying breed before we no longer understand what we have lost! :frown:

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Re: Very Important New Book

#25

Post by Gee.S »

I would argue that the work is not worthy of thorough review until it is complete -- and it is nowhere near complete. My cursory review has uncovered several profound issues with the work as it stands today, including information from one online version entirely conflicting with that in another. These are not minor details attributable to unorthodox organization, which you and you alone, continue to tout. Perhaps Fritz posted this material seeking this very sort of dispassionate objective review as editorial, I wouldn't know. I will tell you that I have been gainfully employed as a freelance copy editor in the past, and have little interest in assuming a pro bono position now.

And this text isn't that new, some of us have been aware of this work for many months now, and may have spent far more time than you perusing its contents. I continue to gleefully anticipate a cohesive, finished product to review. That may be months, or even years away.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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