Agavaceae/Asparagaceae distillates

[JMM]

Hello Agavaceae/Asparagaceae friends,

I made a diagram to help understand the botanical side of distillates of the Agavaceae/Asparagaceae family (see attached). Constructive feedback is welcome.

As a regenerative organic farmer (of peppers mostly), I am concerned with how demand in the marketplace impacts these species. How can brands act as responsible stewards, especially of the more vulnerable species?

[Meangreen94z]

You’re making me thirsty.

I doubt an operation of any scale uses plants from the wild. They may collect seed initially, but I cant see them using actual plants of any great number. It’s possible in the case of offsetting species they may use a few as “breeders”.

[Samhain]

There is definitely a growing market for wild agave mezcals. The time it takes to mature the less common cultivars leaves a huge window for less desireable practices. There was no way to prepare for the market to explode and it will reflect on the wild.

There are many planting and preaching sustainability, but probably many more making ends meet.

[Gee.S]

Your chart has a couple of small errors. A. montana and A. gentryi are both sub-genus Agave, group Salmianae.

[Paul S]

Quite the chart! I had no idea so many species were used in this way.

[Papahuel]

Not sure how I missed this thread.

Let's just say this is somewhat my wheelhouse.....

PXL_20220827_200819068.jpg (328.46 KiB) Viewed 1414 times

There are definitely more Agave and Dasylirions that are used for alcohol production but that is a fairly full list.

Trying to list the species by local/regional name is problematic as I've seen quite a few instances of different local names for the same species, even the scientific name is problematic as you need someone there who can properly identify the species. From what I've seen mezcal used to be largely an "ensemble" mezcal (made from several species of agave all cooked and fermented together).

Tequila sold its soul many many moons ago and became an industrial monster so I have no qualms about buying tequila, and there are still quite a few good brands that are made well. My advice for tequila, never buy a mixto only "100% agave" (look for that on the bottle).

Also whatever you do before buying any bottle of tequila go to: https://www.tequilamatchmaker.com/ and make sure the cooking method for the tequila IS NOT "diffuser", preferably brick oven cooked but even autoclave cooked agave is LIGHT YEARS better than diffuser cooked.

You can never go wrong with a bottle of Fortaleza but it isn't cheap depending where you live in the world.

I've drunk more than my fair share of mezcal, sotol, raicilla and bacanora however I've now stopped buying any of them as I'm more than concerned about what over exploitation and massive increases in production is doing to the wild agave populations, which is mainly what's been used for their production. They are now moving to farming their agave in many areas especially mezcal's heartland, Oaxaca, but as we all know here that takes some time with agave and can't respond to such stratospheric worldwide increases in demand.

Apparently Durango is making efforts to stop this over exploitation but unless I'm there to see it first hand I'm a bit cynical these days, especially when big $ are involved in regions that aren't super affluent.

Worse still is seeing a plethora of worldwide interests "producing" mezcal in Mexico, all to cash in on the quick bucks of the massive explosion in mezcal demand. I'm sure offering the local producers what seems to them like a lot of money, then turning around and selling the mezcal on the international market for a fortune.

I'll just have to wait until I'm making my own

[abborean]

Nice library! Good to see the Irish and Irish book in the mix. Still the best all inclusive agavacea book in my opinion.

[JMM]

You’re making me thirsty.

I doubt an operation of any scale uses plants from the wild. They may collect seed initially, but I cant see them using actual plants of any great number. It’s possible in the case of offsetting species they may use a few as “breeders”.

I think you are correct about operations of large scale not generally using plants from the wild ('silvestre'). But there are many small scale operations that do, and you may find them represented by increasingly recognized brands that operate on a global scale.

[JMM]

There is definitely a growing market for wild agave mezcals. The time it takes to mature the less common cultivars leaves a huge window for less desireable practices. There was no way to prepare for the market to explode and it will reflect on the wild.

There are many planting and preaching sustainability, but probably many more making ends meet.

I think you are correct on most of those points, Samhain. Though, I would point out this is not limited to 'mezcals' (distillates of agave from Oaxaca, Mexico), but also includes wild 'mescals' (distillates of agave, including mezcal, tequila, bacanora, raicilla, etc) and sotols (distillates of Dasylirion) from regions outside of Oaxaca, Mexico.

[JMM]

Your chart has a couple of small errors. A. montana and A. gentryi are both sub-genus Agave, group Salmianae.

Thank you, Gee.S. Would you please share a reference for those corrections? I believe Eggli et al, 2019 would have me put A. montana and A. gentryi under section Hibernicae, which I have not included here. I am sure you are well aware of the taxonomic challenges of the asparagaceae family. This diagram will probably require annual updates.

What are your thoughts on A. tequiliana? I'm considering removing the species from the diagram and adding the common names (tequila and azul) to A. angustifolia Haw.

[JMM]

Quite the chart! I had no idea so many species were used in this way.

Thanks, Paul! Happy to hear that you found it insightful.

[JMM]

Not sure how I missed this thread.

Let's just say this is somewhat my wheelhouse.....

PXL_20220827_200819068.jpg

There are definitely more Agave and Dasylirions that are used for alcohol production but that is a fairly full list.

Trying to list the species by local/regional name is problematic as I've seen quite a few instances of different local names for the same species, even the scientific name is problematic as you need someone there who can properly identify the species. From what I've seen mezcal used to be largely an "ensemble" mezcal (made from several species of agave all cooked and fermented together).

Tequila sold its soul many many moons ago and became an industrial monster so I have no qualms about buying tequila, and there are still quite a few good brands that are made well. My advice for tequila, never buy a mixto only "100% agave" (look for that on the bottle).

Also whatever you do before buying any bottle of tequila go to: https://www.tequilamatchmaker.com/ and make sure the cooking method for the tequila IS NOT "diffuser", preferably brick oven cooked but even autoclave cooked agave is LIGHT YEARS better than diffuser cooked.

You can never go wrong with a bottle of Fortaleza but it isn't cheap depending where you live in the world.

I've drunk more than my fair share of mezcal, sotol, raicilla and bacanora however I've now stopped buying any of them as I'm more than concerned about what over exploitation and massive increases in production is doing to the wild agave populations, which is mainly what's been used for their production. They are now moving to farming their agave in many areas especially mezcal's heartland, Oaxaca, but as we all know here that takes some time with agave and can't respond to such stratospheric worldwide increases in demand.

Apparently Durango is making efforts to stop this over exploitation but unless I'm there to see it first hand I'm a bit cynical these days, especially when big $ are involved in regions that aren't super affluent.

Worse still is seeing a plethora of worldwide interests "producing" mezcal in Mexico, all to cash in on the quick bucks of the massive explosion in mezcal demand. I'm sure offering the local producers what seems to them like a lot of money, then turning around and selling the mezcal on the international market for a fortune.

I'll just have to wait until I'm making my own

Great library, Papahuel. Thanks for sharing. I am most curious about the black, spiral bound book on the far right.

If you are aware of other Agave and Dasylirions used for alcohol production, I would like to know about them.

Yes, as you can see in the diagram, there are many local names for the same species. I have included subspecies (eg Pacifica) in the same column as local names (eg Bacanora) when and where they belong to the same species.

I don't quite follow your reasoning for buying tequila. But, yes, 100% agave for sure.

My concerns with tequila are similar to my concerns with bananas, though, I must admit that I consume both on occasion. Dependency on a single variety generally means less resiliency, right? Not sure about you but I can't say I've ever eaten a Gros Michel.

[Papahuel]

I don't quite follow your reasoning for buying tequila. But, yes, 100% agave for sure.

My concerns with tequila are similar to my concerns with bananas, though, I must admit that I consume both on occasion. Dependency on a single variety generally means less resiliency, right? Not sure about you but I can't say I've ever eaten a Gros Michel.

? My point is tequila production isn't reliant on wild populations of agave, some of which take a very long time to reach maturity (20+ years), where mezcal and sotol does. With the exception of espadin mezcals that are produced like tequila from farmed crops of angustifolia

Tequila production has already suffered several mini Gros Michel monoculture related events over the years and is why the use of diffusers came about allowing producers to harvest young plants and turn them into tequila when disease had drastically reduced the available numbers of mature plants.

I'm more interested in why a regenerative organic pepper farmer is compiling such an exhaustive list?

[JMM]

Trauma recovery.

I don't quite follow your reasoning for buying tequila. But, yes, 100% agave for sure.

My concerns with tequila are similar to my concerns with bananas, though, I must admit that I consume both on occasion. Dependency on a single variety generally means less resiliency, right? Not sure about you but I can't say I've ever eaten a Gros Michel.

? My point is tequila production isn't reliant on wild populations of agave, some of which take a very long time to reach maturity (20+ years), where mezcal and sotol does. With the exception of espadin mezcals that are produced like tequila from farmed crops of angustifolia

Tequila production has already suffered several mini Gros Michel monoculture related events over the years and is why the use of diffusers came about allowing producers to harvest young plants and turn them into tequila when disease had drastically reduced the available numbers of mature plants.

I'm more interested in why a regenerative organic pepper farmer is compiling such an exhaustive list?

[temil1970]

As you a true scholar in the varietals of agave used for distillates, if one was to cultivate agave strictly for spirits in the Arizona or California low desert, elevation 3000 feet, with 3-5 inches of rainfall a year, which would you recommend? Taking into account the time it takes to reach maturity as well.