Dasylirion from seed glacially slow? Or is it me

[Papahuel]

Hi,

Along with my ridiculous number of agaves I've also been growing Dasylirion wheeleri and D longissimum, they are coming up to between 12-18 months old.

They still look like a weedy grass, if it wasn't for the fact I had sowed each and every one of them and their fairly unique seeds I would not guess they are Dasylirion. They are wiry to the touch bluer than most grasses.

I'm growing them in the same free-draining predominantly inorganic mix I use for my agaves.

I originally had some in full sun and some where they get direct sun for 1/2 - 2/3 of the day, the full sun ones started to not look happy so I put them all together only getting direct sun for part of the day.

They are growing, but terribly slowly compared to my agave seedlings. Thoughts, or is this normal, are they very slow starters?

Thanks

[Paul S]

They grow pretty slowly for me, too, here in England but seemingly faster than yours. I started off some Dasylirion acrotriche seed in March and would say they re roughly the size of yours at the moment.

Something that was recommended to me years ago for dasylirion and nolina was to start off maybe a dozen or more seeds in a 3" pot and leave them together, potting on the whole lot into the next sized pot for the next two pottings, rather than prick them out into individual pots too early. They don't seem to suffer any check to growth that way and when it comes time to separate out the plants the roots are tough enough to be handled fairly roughly when pulling apart. It does seem to work ok doing that, so I have stuck with it. Bit late for you on this occasion but possibly worth a try next time? The one drawback I have noticed is that if they get mealy bugs it is more of a problem to deal with when a lot of plants are clustered together.

[Bananaguy]

The two small seedling I have been growing and I noticed if the receive water often they have grown bigger for me.

[Gee.S]

Way way way slow here, as well...

[Papahuel]

Thanks for the replies, in that case I'll just continue my patience, they are growing and not looking unhappy, and it sounds from what you've all said they are on the slow side.

I usually start my agave seeds (except for precious/rare seeds) in 198 seed trays on a temperature controlled heat mat then plant ones that germinated out into larger pots, although some agave seeds/species I was getting as low as 15-20% germination rates so that method made more sense.

With the Dasylirion, despite their slow growth, with both species I'm growing the seeds are crazily successful. Whether this is due to the freshness of seeds or Dasylirion in general I'm not sure. Pampered on the heat mat, indoors, with soil moisture monitored, I got 95-98% germination and chucking them in a pot on a tray and sticking them outside to fend for themselves and survive off natural rainfall I got around 85% which definitely isn't the case I've found for agave, some in particular (I'm looking at you Deserticolae) if I tried germinating them like that outside I would be lucky to get 5% germination.

Cheers!

[Papahuel]

Bit of an update, I've had more success with Dasylirion progress (as you may have seen in my other post).

Unlike agave it seems young Dasys dislike smaller pots and xeric conditions. Most agaves I've grown from seed are pretty crazily xeric after only ~18months even in small pots (down to 250mL/1 cup!)

Not long after my previous post I planted up all my Dasys into 4L/1 Gal pots or bigger (quite a few in 4 Gal pots) in a slightly more water retaining soil mix and they all started growing much faster. I even planted a couple in a much heavier clay soil mix just to see and even that didn't seem to bother them overly just slowing them slightly. This is for D wheeleri and D longissimum at the moment (only D wheeleri pictured).

Starting to get some in the ground now:

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[Meangreen94z]

Bit of an update, I've had more success with Dasylirion progress (as you may have seen in my other post).

Unlike agave it seems young Dasys dislike smaller pots and xeric conditions. Most agaves I've grown from seed are pretty crazily xeric after only ~18months even in small pots (down to 250mL/1 cup!)

Not long after my previous post I planted up all my Dasys into 4L/1 Gal pots or bigger (quite a few in 4 Gal pots) in a slightly more water retaining soil mix and they all started growing much faster. I even planted a couple in a much heavier clay soil mix just to see and even that didn't seem to bother them overly just slowing them slightly. This is for D wheeleri and D longissimum at the moment (only D wheeleri pictured).

Starting to get some in the ground now:

IMG_20220312_073525853_HDR.jpg
IMG_20220312_073650021_HDR.jpg

I moved mine out too quickly. They burnt on the tips during the Fall sun, and didn’t care for our winte, mostly crispy. I only tried Wheeleri and a couple Nolina I thought could handle it. They are back under a light in the garage with the other species. I’ll wait a while.

[MSX]

Hello guys, what is the best substrate (coco coir, perlite, sand, etc) to germinate dasylirion wheeleri? Thanks!

[plantguy]

Could you give more info on your growing conditions? Depending on how often you water affects all sorts of factors.

[Papahuel]

Hello guys, what is the best substrate (coco coir, perlite, sand, etc) to germinate dasylirion wheeleri? Thanks!

I no longer use Coco coir, especially for germinating as the coarse strands I've found strangling young plants roots on more than one occasion.

If it's something I want best results on I use 50/50 perlite/vermiculite but needs more regular watering, but pretty much anything usually works for dasylirion as long as it remains relatively moist during germination.

[mickthecactus]

I use compost and vermiculite 50/50 for everything and it works fine for me.

I grew longissimum years ago from seed and it’s still a small plant.

[MSX]

Thanks a lot for your replies guys!
I only have a dozen of D. wheeleri seeds, never started succulents from scratch before. Performed the float test and the seeds sank immediately, I don't know if the float test works for succulents too, I usually test palm seeds this way. Anyway, my plan is to germinate them in the individual containers so they can germinate and continue growing there and the roots don't get disturbed. I'm thinking to use small 3" clear plastic disposable cups for that purpose like the one pictured below, or is it wiser to start in the bigger containers (cup, pot)?
Perlite - "to breathe", vermiculite/coco - "to drink", but I was thinking of adding something "to eat" to the substrate, something light, full of nutrients and safe (for young roots) like worm castings or compost to give them a push from the very start, so what do you think of this? Perlite/vermiculite/+worm castings in equal parts, for example?

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[MSX]

I no longer use Coco coir, especially for germinating as the coarse strands I've found strangling young plants roots on more than one occasion.

There're two types of coco products - coco coir with coarse fibers and so called cocopeat which is more similar to soil/powder in appearance, and is created by rubbing or grinding the coco fiber together until it breaks apart into tiny pieces, I wonder which one you actually used

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[Papahuel]

Thanks a lot for your replies guys!
I only have a dozen of D. wheeleri seeds, never started succulents from scratch before. Performed the float test and the seeds sank immediately, I don't know if the float test works for succulents too, I usually test palm seeds this way. Anyway, my plan is to germinate them in the individual containers so they can germinate and continue growing there and the roots don't get disturbed. I'm thinking to use small 3" clear plastic disposable cups for that purpose like the one pictured below, or is it wiser to start in the bigger containers (cup, pot)?
Perlite - "to breathe", vermiculite/coco - "to drink", but I was thinking of adding something "to eat" to the substrate, something light, full of nutrients and safe (for young roots) like worm castings or compost to give them a push from the very start, so what do you think of this? Perlite/vermiculite/+worm castings in equal parts, for example?

Growing in a sealed container (or one without drainage holes) you are just setting yourself up for damping off problems or other microbial attack, especially when using worm castings which are potentially full of pathogens. You can sterilize or pasteurize the mix but why make life more difficult for little/no benefit.

As you probably know seeds only need moisture to germinate, then not long after sunlight/light source, once they have mostly germinated ~1-2weeks I water them with a quarter strength liquid all purpose plant food (aka miracle gro or whatever name it goes by in your neck of the woods). That is then enough nutrient to get them to the point where I'm potting them up.

There're two types of coco products - coco coir with coarse fibers and so called cocopeat which is more similar to soil/powder in appearance, and is created by rubbing or grinding the coco fiber together until it breaks apart into tiny pieces, I wonder which one you actually used

Sold here in Australia there is pretty much the same product sold most places under several names, be it coconut coir, coco peat but they are the same product, a combination of coconut fibers, chunks and 'cocopeat', all in one super compressed brick you re-hydrate to use.

It's the 'chunks' that cause the most problems as young roots will grow through a chunk as it is full of water. Then as the root grows the strong coarse coco fibers garrote the root, especially with dasylirion's very thick fleshy roots.

Perlite and vermiculite are relatively cheap here and available in massive 100l bags so I just use those as I never have any issue and they are consistent products.

[Papahuel]

All that being said I've never had trouble germinating dasylirion seeds regardless of what I'm germinating them in.

It is the getting them to grow quickly thereafter that was the problem, and the original question of this thread.

They are slow but a big pot, much more water than most agaves and being left alone without repotting them all the time I have found the best for getting them to grow at a 'reasonable' pace.

[MSX]

Sorry for hijacking the topic, but I don't want to multiply topics on a similar subject in this forum. Sowed the seeds individually in small pots (9cm) and they started to sprout. Is it okay now to remove humidity domes(plastic cups) or they still need high humidity levels at this stage? They're kept indoors, indoor humidity level now is between 35 to 45 percent. Thanks!

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[plantguy]

With most plants you would leave them on longer, but I would guess that succulents should have theirs removed now to avoid rot. I personally would begin puncturing the top of the cup to adapt the plants to lower humidity. I haven't grown these from seed so I would wait to hear from others.

[edds]

I'd keep the domes on until you have established true leaves.
But I'd lift them daily to ensure the air is changed occasionally but I imagine your doing this when checking on them anyway. Please note this is my experience when growing Agave and Aloes; I have never grown Dasylirion.

[Paul S]

I've raised probably hundreds of dasys from seed and find they are just as easy as any other of the woody lilies from fresh seed. This is what I do, whetehr it is good or bad I ca't say but it works for me.

I start them off in a soil-less medium - for the past 10 years or so I've used moler clay which is sold here in the UK for mopping up garage forecourt petrol spillages or even a particular type of cat litter. Usually between 10-20 seeds in a 9cm (3.5"?) pot. I stick them in a covered but unheated propagator. Once they have germinated I take them out and leave them, uncovered, in my unheated greenhouse. I leave them undisturbed for a year or three until they have filled the pot with roots. Then I just pot that on to the next size without separating the seedlings and leave that for a year or 2. Then, once the roots have crowded that pot, I break open the root ball and pot them individually. By then the roots are big and tough. It might not give the best or fastest results but it is what it is.

[MSX]

With most plants you would leave them on longer, but I would guess that succulents should have theirs removed now to avoid rot. I personally would begin puncturing the top of the cup to adapt the plants to lower humidity. I haven't grown these from seed so I would wait to hear from others.

Thanks! You know I have only grown palms from seeds and I usually remove the domes as soon as they send up the first leave. I have never germinated succulents before, so I start my "succulents from scracth" experience with the DAWH seeds.

[MSX]

I'd keep the domes on until you have established true leaves.
But I'd lift them daily to ensure the air is changed occasionally but I imagine your doing this when checking on them anyway. Please note this is my experience when growing Agave and Aloes; I have never grown Dasylirion.

Thanks, I will do so! No domes during the day and domes back for a while during the night when we turn on the heaters so the indoor air is too dry. Oh yeah that's true I'm checking on them regularly during the day!

[MSX]

I've raised probably hundreds of dasys from seed and find they are just as easy as any other of the woody lilies from fresh seed. This is what I do, whetehr it is good or bad I ca't say but it works for me.

I start them off in a soil-less medium - for the past 10 years or so I've used moler clay which is sold here in the UK for mopping up garage forecourt petrol spillages or even a particular type of cat litter. Usually between 10-20 seeds in a 9cm (3.5"?) pot. I stick them in a covered but unheated propagator. Once they have germinated I take them out and leave them, uncovered, in my unheated greenhouse. I leave them undisturbed for a year or three until they have filled the pot with roots. Then I just pot that on to the next size without separating the seedlings and leave that for a year or 2. Then, once the roots have crowded that pot, I break open the root ball and pot them individually. By then the roots are big and tough. It might not give the best or fastest results but it is what it is.

Thanks a lot for sharing your very professional experience! Wow thousands of dasys!
What is the lowest temperature and humidity in your unheated greenhouse?

[Paul S]

Not quite thousands but, yes, a lot over the years.

The temperature in my greenhouse currently, 3.15pm in England, is around -1C, last night was cold and it got down to around -5C. Humidity would be something like 90-95% That said I wouldn't risk baby Dasylirion serratifolium or lucidum down to those temps as they are a fair bit more tender than those from further north.

[jam]

I've raised probably hundreds of dasys from seed and find they are just as easy as any other of the woody lilies from fresh seed. This is what I do, whetehr it is good or bad I ca't say but it works for me.

I start them off in a soil-less medium - for the past 10 years or so I've used moler clay which is sold here in the UK for mopping up garage forecourt petrol spillages or even a particular type of cat litter. Usually between 10-20 seeds in a 9cm (3.5"?) pot. I stick them in a covered but unheated propagator. Once they have germinated I take them out and leave them, uncovered, in my unheated greenhouse. I leave them undisturbed for a year or three until they have filled the pot with roots. Then I just pot that on to the next size without separating the seedlings and leave that for a year or 2. Then, once the roots have crowded that pot, I break open the root ball and pot them individually. By then the roots are big and tough. It might not give the best or fastest results but it is what it is.

Useful info, Paul. I've started some D. leiophyllum seeds in a big community pot (4-5? liters) so that I don't need to disturb them for 3 or 4 years. While I've got 100% germination success rate with leiophyllum, I am at zero percent with texanum after 20 days. Probably something to do with the seeds shelf life.

[jam]

4 months on and these leiophyllum are romping away, so not as glacially slow as observed by some...
They're in a 20cm/8inch high community pot with lava rock in the bottom, still, some roots got though and broke off when I picked up the pot. And as mentioned above, they love water. Next time I'll use a deeper pot.