What are the limits of ethical collecting?

[nsp88]

Taking entire plans is poaching and is harmful for plant populations and everything.

Taking seeds is okay if from approved areas and if you don't take too many. I think they say less than 10%, right?

But what about leaves? Say it's a succulent that propagates from leaves. Is it okay to take leaves? If so, what are the limits there? Is it okay to take a leaf or two from multiple plants and leave with a dozen or so leaves to propagate? Does it just depend on how many plants there are on what is acceptable?

What about taking cuttings from plants where the plant would survive and the cutting would go on to make a new plant? I would assume this would be less acceptable than taking a leaf.

I think it'd be fun to eventually go see various stone crops in the wild, but just curious if it's okay to take anything other than seeds or not. Don't want to cause harm.

[Meangreen94z]

If it’s on protected land, technically you can’t collect anything. If the species isn’t endangered I think collecting a small amount of seed for personal use isn’t a terrible thing.

[nsp88]

If it’s on protected land, technically you can’t collect anything. If the species isn’t endangered I think collecting a small amount of seed for personal use isn’t a terrible thing.

So stick to seeds and only under certain conditions. Okay, thanks.

[Gafoto]

Does it just depend on how many plants there are on what is acceptable?

Certainly. Some plants are so ridiculously abundant I don’t think there’s anyone who would bat an eye at “poaching” them. I’ve plucked several Bigtooth Sage seedlings from the edge of a mountain biking trail and replanted them in my beds. Hard to feel bad. I’m guessing the Artemisia tridentata population is in the hundreds of millions or billions. There’s 422,000 square miles of it in the western US. I’ve probably run over a few dozen with vehicles just trying to get turned around out in the desert too.

On the other hand I’ve visited Agave and cactus populations with fewer plants than I have fingers or toes. Digging up a plant there would reduce the population really notably. I limit my seed collecting based on the availability of what is in the area. Fortunately Agave and Yucca are fairly prolific on that front.

[Paul S]

I imagine the UK laws are similar. Long ago, in a galaxy far away, I was a police officer - I managed15 years until I became ill with something that enforced a career change. Anyhoo - the Theft Act states (I still remember) it is illegal to take anything growing wild on any land apart from fruits, flowers, foliage and fungi. The four Fs, we were told in training, except we were always taught 'fruits, flowers, foliage and f*"#ing mushrooms'. Still makes me laugh today, despite that being 45 years ago. I am older but clearly no wiser.

[Gafoto]

In the US things are complicated since land ownership varies greatly and there can be overlapping state and federal laws. There are species that are legally protected in some ways, like all legally threatened and endangered species.

[Gee.S]

I have been out in the field many times with Wendy Hodgson from the DBG. Wendy has a state-issued carte blanche permit to collect pretty much anything she wants, and she isn't shy about using it. I once saw her and her partner Andrew collect an entire bag full of Dudleya (100+ plants) from a low desert area so harsh I was surprised by their presence. She is also prone to collect A. phillipsiana in large numbers, pinching pups from nearly every site we found. I never understood why. Personally, I found her collection activities especially threatening to the domesticate agaves she likes to hang her reputational hat on, and she once forwarded her desire to collect phillipsiana to extinction before it goes extinct on its own. My point is that I found her legal collection activities unethical, and just leave it at that.

[nsp88]

I have been out in the field many times with Wendy Hodgson from the DBG. Wendy has a state-issued carte blanche permit to collect pretty much anything she wants, and she isn't shy about using it. I once saw her and her partner Andrew collect an entire bag full of Dudleya (100+ plants) from a low desert area so harsh I was surprised at their presence. She is also prone to collect A. phillipsiana in large numbers, pinching pups from nearly every site we found. I never understood why. Personally, I found her collection activities especially threatening to the domesticate agaves she likes to hang her reputational hat on, and she once forwarded her desire to collect phillipsiana to extinction before it goes extinct on its own. My point is that I found her legal collection activities unethical, and just leave it at that.

Man, that is depressing. I guess once they get the permit(s) there's no oversight..

Dudleya poaching is what even alerted me to how bad succulent poaching is. I learned about them recently and was looking into them before getting one around Christmas time. Came across all the info about that big bust they had in California of all the poachers for Chinese buyers a few years back.

[Gafoto]

My point is that I found her legal collection activities unethical, and just leave it at that.

Laws are (sometimes) nicely black and white. Ethics are a whole other matter.

While I was hiking in the Sierra Ancha back in December one of the roads I was on had been worked on recently, I assume by a dozer. There were half a dozen mature Agave chrysantha piled up on the roadside where they had grown too close. If I had a big enough bag I could’ve taken a couple nice specimens that were doomed to die. Plants I would never dig up on my own but could’ve felt fine about poaching since someone else did the damage. I tipped a couple rightside up, maybe they’ll survive if the winter wasn’t too harsh.

The whole thing made me feel better about pinching some bulbils off a broken stalk. I made a deal with Mayahuel and collected a dozen and chucked a dozen off into the brush to fend for themselves. I will often do the same when collecting seed. Give a few the old heave ho to get them far from their starting stalk.

[Gee.S]

Salvage collection is the opposite of poaching IMHO. Save what you can, I'd say.

In terms of our legal system, I'll just say that I hold spirit of the law far above letter of the law, though our highly vaunted legal system most certainly does not. As an example, I once pinched a couple of small A. phillipsiana pups. They were mite infested, and had little to no chance of survival if left untreated. So I brought them home and treated them. Each survived. Two seasons later I donated one to the DBG, and kept the other, which has since bloomed and produced plenty of offsets. Just another salvage operation in my eye.

I also consider bulbil collection a form of salvage. Anything is better than watching them die on the vine.

[nsp88]

While I was hiking in the Sierra Ancha back in December one of the roads I was on had been worked on recently, I assume by a dozer. There were half a dozen mature Agave chrysantha piled up on the roadside where they had grown too close.

Oh yeah, that was another introduction to succulent poaching for me. A while back on some instagram drama between two different nurseries fighting about some wild-collected agave. One nursery had some pictures of a bunch they collected. Another nursery called them out for it since they weren't tagged appropriately I think or maybe just because they are wild collected or the sheer number I don't remember. The nursery that collected them claimed they collected all of them because they were going to be destroyed by an incoming road. I think The nursery that collected them claimed they were going to sue the other nursery about it. I don't remember the nursery names or whatever happened about it, but was kind of wild.

[Gee.S]

I have been out in the field many times with Wendy Hodgson from the DBG. Wendy has a state-issued carte blanche permit to collect pretty much anything she wants, and she isn't shy about using it. I once saw her and her partner Andrew collect an entire bag full of Dudleya (100+ plants) from a low desert area so harsh I was surprised at their presence. She is also prone to collect A. phillipsiana in large numbers, pinching pups from nearly every site we found. I never understood why. Personally, I found her collection activities especially threatening to the domesticate agaves she likes to hang her reputational hat on, and she once forwarded her desire to collect phillipsiana to extinction before it goes extinct on its own. My point is that I found her legal collection activities unethical, and just leave it at that.

Man, that is depressing. I guess once they get the permit(s) there's no oversight..

Dudleya poaching is what even alerted me to how bad succulent poaching is. I learned about them recently and was looking into them before getting one around Christmas time. Came across all the info about that big bust they had in California of all the poachers for Chinese buyers a few years back.

It's a very common Dudleya, D. saxosa, and their effort did not threaten the species in a broad sense, but I was furious, because I felt it did threaten them at this unlikely habitat locale, which I had brought them to. That act colored all of our subsequent interactions, and not in a good way.

[Gee.S]

While I was hiking in the Sierra Ancha back in December one of the roads I was on had been worked on recently, I assume by a dozer. There were half a dozen mature Agave chrysantha piled up on the roadside where they had grown too close.

Oh yeah, that was another introduction to succulent poaching for me. A while back on some instagram drama between two different nurseries fighting about some wild-collected agave. One nursery had some pictures of a bunch they collected. Another nursery called them out for it since they weren't tagged appropriately I think or maybe just because they are wild collected or the sheer number I don't remember. The nursery that collected them claimed they collected all of them because they were going to be destroyed by an incoming road. I think The nursery that collected them claimed they were going to sue the other nursery about it. I don't remember the nursery names or whatever happened about it, but was kind of wild.

That is an issue. I feel it's generally OK to salvage plants from a rubbish heap. We have housing developments going up all the time, and I've plucked a few cactus here and there, as I've found them at these dozed construction sites. It's always common stuff like Opuntia, cholla, and Echinocereus, but I'll stop and look for nice Echinocereus at these places sometimes, but only for my personal collection (I may give one or two to friends). But it's full stop if the collection is commercial. Then you need a permit, no ifs, ands, or buts.

[Gafoto]

I also consider bulbil collection a form of salvage. Anything is better than watching them die on the vine.

The generation of bulbils is such an odd strategy for plants. I would have to guess in Arizona the chances for any of them to survive is incredibly slim.

Of the dozen I took about half rooted, the others have just withered away. That’s with nice, careful planting. In nature they usually seem to just die on the stalk or just get dropped on top of the ground.

[Gee.S]

^ For agaves, it is an absolute last gasp. Damaged stalks will engage a secondary bloom event when possible (depends on where damage occurred). If not, it might be bulbils. I suspect that regular bulbil producers only do so as a result of ancient anthropogenic influence.

[mickthecactus]

For those of us a million miles away this is fascinating stuff.