Rare Kelly Griffin Aloe Dark Shadows on Ebay

[Woodlily74]

On Ebay ends Sunday Dark Shadows, plus same seller has Karen Zimmermans Princess Jack. You don'9t want to miss out

[Spination]

I've never heard of 'Dark Shadows', other than the old soap from the late 60's. Tried googling the Aloe, and came up with absolutely nothing. The 'Princess Jack' is offered by the same seller, who has been offering a host of larger, well grown, nice-looking specimens of Aloe, Gasteria, and Haworthia. If I didn't just get a PJ, I would have been bidding on that for sure. Comparing PJ and Dragon side by side, they are so very similar, which stands to reason given they are selected siblings.

[Agavemonger]

Dark Shadows is in the regular Aloe section. Google e-bay Aloes, than google Aloe Dark Shadow within e-bay. At least that is how I found it (after scrolling through some three hundred entries under hybrid Aloes! )

The Monger

[Spination]

Is it one you're familiar with?

[Agavemonger]

I've never heard of it, so I would be a little skeptical... It is probably one of those "Thistlesifter" illegit "named" Griffin hybrids that made the rounds for a while; There are about 100 or more of them; they are Kelly Griffin plants acquired rather surreptitiously through the nursery where he used to work. Some were bought from the owner of the nursery, who used to sell Kelly's breeding stock when he was on vacation. I even heard that some of Kelly's rejects were fished back out of the dumpster and sold and then named. Some were even named after movies and such; I have one I got for breeding called 'There will be Blood', of all things. Pretty retarded name for a plant, me thinks! (I guess, thinking about it further, that probably explains where the moniker 'Dark Shadows' came from!)

They are Kelly's plants, but not his selections, and named by others. So for all intents and purposes, it is pretty unfair to sell them as K.J.G. hybrids. But they could always be used as breeding stock, I suppose...

The Monger

[Woodlily74]

Original source of Dark Shadow is Eunise Thompson from the local Catcus Club.

[Spination]

Woodlily - Interesting info. Using that info, I found this regarding Eunice Thompson : Curator of Dominguez Rancho Adobe (Ca historical landmark 152) garden which is somehow connected to the Long Beach Garden Club. How were you able to find that out regarding 'Dark Shadows'? Just curious. http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/06 ... -2010feb06" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Momger - Thanks for the information regarding some of the KG hybrids/breeding stock/& rejects that got sneaked or leaked out there. Interesting story. I think similar can be said for some DW hybrids. A lot of them out there not actually named and released by DW, but stock that got out there one way or another and subsequently represented as DW hybrids. I got one hybrid recently, and inquired regarding it's heritage. I was told it was a "DW hybrid" that the seller "grew from seed". My question that I kept to myself - How is it a "DW hybrid" if DW himself didn't breed it? I get the part that it's likely from DW plants crossed together....but still ... ? An offset from an actual DW hybrid would still be a DW hybrid, but not seed grown plants. At least that's how I see it.

Anyway, I agree with the idea behind your comment based on the back-story you provided : "They are Kelly's plants, but not his selections, and named by others. So for all intents and purposes, it is pretty unfair to sell them as K.J.G. hybrids."

[Azuleja]

It is interesting what makes a plant attributable to someone and what doesn't. Going back to a XW thread, KG was asked if he created Blue Glow and he said he selected it. I took that to mean the breeding and growing was done by someone else.

[Spination]

Yes, it is interesting. In my example of the person who presumably bred DW stock and then called at least the one seedling I got a DW hybrid, I think the correct representation would have been something to the effect of claiming it was one of his own hybrids, from DW Stock. Of course, by disclosing that he grew it from seed, the implication is the same, except the way I propose seems more honest IMO. The version as it was given to me seems to want to represent that it is in fact a DW hybrid, but that he grew it from seed ( ). Perhaps nit-picky on my part, but it goes to motive. Ascribing to a famous breeder a plant the breeder didn't directly create, tries to piggyback the reputation of the breeder on the subsequent result he didn't actually intend. For all I know, DW might look at the plant I got, and hate it, and it might have wound up in his reject pile. So, yeah...calling it a DW hybrid is actually not right at all. And the same thinking would apply to KG hybrids that were not intended for eventual distribution, but get represented as KG hybrids.

Of course, in the final analysis, it's about the plant. If its a nice plant, certainly it's worthy regardless of it's history, but I do believe it should still be properly represented. The misrepresentations that appear to be rampant are a separate issue from how desirable a given plant might be, regardless of the name it's given. And there too, is the question regarding the eye of the beholder. The breeder's judgement is not necessarily going to line up with the fancies of subsequent consumers of the product, which pretty much goes to the heart of the matter.

[Woodlily74]

Spiney, I simply asked the seller on ebay.

[Spination]

I had a hunch it was that simple. I even typed if you had asked the seller, then deleted it. Thanks for the info.

[Agavemonger]

Eunice Thompson has for many years been a speculator/"broker" of extremely rare "upper-end" plants. She is quite often involved in the "dissolution" of very rare collections, and is well known in Southern California circles for her understated savvy and connections. So she has certainly had access over many years to Kelly Griffin's material, either directly or indirectly. Whether this plant "originated" from Kelly or not would require quite a bit of further sleuthing, I am afraid. I am pretty sure that Kelly did not name the plant.

I once showed Kelly an extensive list of hybrid Aloe names that I had compiled that were understood to be his hybrids. He went through the list with me methodically, stating "yay" or "nay" to whether the different "names" originated from him, and commenting on quite a few as we went along. He was quick to point out the correct spelling, along with injecting many very interesting anecdotes about the plants and names. Unfortunately, I don't think 'Dark Shadows' was on the list.

I always get a little "riled up" when I see these plants being sold for what I consider preposterous amounts of money at shows or on e-bay type sites by "speculators" in the plant world. What on earth makes one hybrid worth $150 and another one almost worthless? Often times, just the opposite pricing would make more sense. They are all virtually effortless to propagate; like Biblical loaves and fishes, they seem almost magically fast to replicate under reasonably good conditions. I have tried for years to get a handle on the extremely variable desirability of these hybrids, and have yet to get a clue on predicting the market. It is almost as if paying more money for a plant somehow makes it more valuable.

There are now literally thousands of different named "Table-Top" Aloe hybrids trading hands, and to me they seem to form an extended continuum of forms and colors. They are a lot of fun to collect, for sure, but I just don't get what will prompt a person to pay hundreds of dollars for the latest subtle variant.

Anybody can collect and germinate hybrid Aloe seed; just remember, the problem comes later when many thousands of seedlings need to be raised to a reasonable size in order to sort out the wheat from the chaff!

The Monger

[Spination]

I appreciate the additional info regarding Eunice Thompson and Kelly Griffin. Since I love these plants, I enjoy accumulating knowledge about them, so thanks for sharing!

I can offer an educated opinion regarding what happens on the Ebay marketplace, having been a participant in the bidding/buying end and also as a seller. Not just plants, but also regarding collectibles in general. I've been a seller of a particular type of collectible on behalf of family, since 2007, have a couple thousand feedbacks, top seller status, and 100% positive feedback. I'm not mentioning that to brag, only that I definitely do know a thing or two about both buying and selling on Ebay. Prices achieved are a direct reflection of appeal, and the higher prices a function of that desirability, and rarity, and demand. The desirability factor has to do with universal appeal - that is...qualities which a group of collectors for the most part all find attractive and appealing. Rarity speaks for itself, in that the fewer of a particular desired item, and the more that people want it (demand), the higher the prices. The bottom line, is a person can ask a ridiculous amount for a hybrid Aloe for example, but if there aren't people who find it particularly desirable, it won't sell. By the same token, a starting bid on something very desirable can be .99, and in the end, the competing bidders will decide what it's "worth" as they bid against each other and drive the price up. After just how appealing a plant actually is to more than one person desiring the plant, it reduces to the simple supply and demand of Economics 101. Also, the auction effect has a life of it's own, sometimes with surprising results, and quite beneficial to the seller.

You can take a fantastic plant like 'Sunrise', or 'Christmas Carol', and as beautful as they are, they are a dime a dozen, because there are so many out there available. On the other hand, something like 'Dracula's Blood' is rarely seen, and sells for big bucks (up to $100 range). Rarity. Supply and demand. Simple.

I don't begrudge anyone the good fortune to get a good price for a plant on Ebay. Personally, I think it's good for the trade too. If perceived desirable plants are generating interest in the hobby, it has a positive ripple effect throughout the trade. There's also an old saying: If you can't beat 'em - join 'em. My translation of that with regard to the Ebay or similar marketplaces phenomenon is, rather than cast disparagement, take advantage. Why not?

Another point. There's a learning curve regarding selling on Ebay, and some skill, but also, when it comes to auction style formats, timing is everything. Therein, there's the element of luck. A recent example I can give has to do with some A. polyphylla seedlings I've been selling on Ebay. I am needing to thin out my collection of some stuff, to make room for other stuff (like other seedlings I have growing). So, I decided to let one of my polyphylla seedlings go (3"), among some other things. It sold for some 30 something bucks. I thought, this is pretty good. Maybe I'll let another go. Next one, same exact looking seedling about the same size, sold for over 60. Yippee! One more, sold for nearly 40. The concept of "worth" does not apply. When 2 people want the same thing at the same time, and there is only one available, then you get fireworks. It's that simple. Some things will generate fireworks more than others.

Lastly, I think a name too can have some degree of effect. For example - I think the name 'Dracula's Blood' has some degree of appeal. I've been giving a daughter Aloe hybrid offsets here and there. I had already given her a couple I think are really nice, like 'Lavender Star', and 'Sunrise'. I mentioned some names of hybrids I have, and when I got to 'Fang', she had to have one. So, I gave her one. She loves it. I recently mentioned I have something called 'Dracula's Blood'. Would you like to guess? She HAS to have one! Never saw it, has no idea what it looks like yet, but she just has to have one. All I'm saying, something as silly as a name, can make a difference too.

[Azuleja]

I'm enjoying my small collection of colorful names. None really more valuable than the other, each a small miracle. The most any of them have cost is $15. In reality, I think it's a small handful of people actually paying big bucks for these little plants.

[Agavemonger]

No doubt about it, a name is everything.

'Dracula's Blood' has been around for a long time; It is a nice plant, but not something I would call truly special. It is easy to grow.

I guess I should divide up my stock plants and sell them. At even $25 each I could probably retire!

But then, of course, I would flood the market and the price would go down.

Azuleja, you have the right attitude!

The Monger

[Spination]

Azul - I think more than a small handful. The Ebay audience or patronage is world-wide. Disregarding the logistics of shipping a plant internationally, you have huge numbers of people worldwide with interest in these wonderful tabletop hybrids, and numbers are growing the more they get seen. Even limiting to the domestic audience, there's still a whole lot of people. Also, when it comes to collectors, there is a process or stages that occur. A few years ago, I would have thought a person insane for spending $100 on an Aloe hybrid. Now, occasionally, I am one of those insane ones. I don't like to spend that much, prefer to spend less, but... if I really want something, I'll spend what it takes to get it, within my evolving definition of reason. I guarantee I'm far from the only one.

[mcvansoest]

I think Tom very clearly puts the danger of eBay into words: if you go on there with a mindset of 'I have got to have it!' you are in danger of paying hundreds of dollars for a particular plant (I am sure those of you who regularly check out the Agave listings have seen the current flooding of the market with outrageously priced what would appear to be one off variegates).

I have fallen into said 'have to have it' trap once or twice for non plant items but have been fortunate enough that what I was bidding on did not get too crazy, but I ended up outbidding what I wanted to pay by quite a margin. So these days if I go on eBay and bid on something I set myself a clear maximum bid and keep to that and live with the fact that it might mean the plant or item will sell for maybe as little as 50 cents more, such is life. I have decided that especially for plants I simply cannot afford the 'have to have it' mindset not in the least given the fact that in my climate survival of a fancy pampered greenhouse grown plant is not always a given even despite my best efforts.

[Azuleja]

I very rarely "have to have" something on ebay as I know another will always come around. If you want something specific and know your maximum price, you can create an exact search for it and request email alerts. Beyond that I use a sniping service, which absolutely prevents a bidding war and also doesn't alert other bidders to your interest.

[Spination]

So, Princess Jack and Dark Shadows are both already bid up over $50 each, and at the same current price on the eve of the auction end. I rather figured they'd get bid up, but I'm surprised this much this early. Usually, the greatest % of gain on hot items is in the final seconds. I'm probably more surprised over Princess Jack, but given it's offered so rarely, and also looking at the stem of that particular plant indicating some years of growing, I guess it's not altogether that far-fetched really.

[Woodlily74]

Princess Jack up to $ 83.00! Still 2 hours to go...

[Woodlily74]

I just noticed the top bidder has id K###G wondering if it is Kelly Griffin ?

[Azuleja]

Bidder id's are randomized.

[Spination]

I'm not showing that - for me it's showing 7***5 (52). The low feedback # tells me either someone relatively new on Ebay, or not very active. That's the only deduction I can make from that information. If I knew a person's Ebay moniker, I can compare with their current feedback score, and that is pretty conclusive. I've done that before, but does it even matter really?

Yeah, noticed that bidding early this AM on PJ. Looks like that stem is at least 4" tall. My 'Dragon" I've been growing for 2 years came as a good sized plant but no stem. It's stem is now 1 1/4" in 2 years. Assuming a faster growth rate even, I'd say that PJ must have been growing for about the full 7 years since it's initial release. Sibling 'Dragon' was only published in the Cactus and Succulent Journal in 2010. Both PJ and Dragon were ISI releases in 2010, so the plant was probably purchased back then, and has been well grown since. Anyway, considering someone (the seller presumably?) has been growing it for 7 years, it explains to me anyway why the bidding is so hot on that one. I haven't seen it very often available, and older ones like that aren't going to be seen for sale very often.

[Woodlily74]

PJ broke the $100.00 mark! My goodness!!!

[Spination]

I enjoyed seeing that, because it demonstrates in some monetary fashion the obvious idea that an older, and well grown plant increases in terms of desirability and "value". I also enjoyed seeing a picture of such an example with the stem/trunk-forming, tree-like characteristic of one of the parents in it's heritage - Aloe divaricata.